what is the goal of sorcery? what is your goal/what do you hope to achieve from it?
for buddhism, the goal is the end of suffering, for christianity, it is salvation, as examples, what would the purpose or goal of sorcery be, or is it something intensely personal?
31 Comments
Freedom.
forgive me if i seem pedantic, i just want clarity. but. freedom from what? freedom to do what?
Freedom from stupid questions, for one! That works for meeee.
Freedom of perception.
But to reach that you have to also be free from so much more, that it might as well be freedom from everything.
Or rather to not be tied to any one thing. To explore and live without being shackled, mostly by our own self-imposed limitations.
Just like the yogic tradition or similar
They use the term Liberation
Freedom from the bonds that tie us from generally accepted realities
To go beyond and still be here, or not
Gained abilities that constantly grow
Along with great responsibility
There is a goal, but i doubt someone could put it into words. I think don juan called it "the full potential".
Or the sliding door pass that literally opens a portal into the void. Its pretty insane
this makes sense, a lot of what we are/what reality is/what we feel cannot be put into words adequately and in our rationalist society we kind of think that if it can't be put into words, it isn't real, isn't meaningful.
Yes but I also mean some actual effects. When you get to push silence daily you get to experience "the abstract" to varying degrees. Like when your in the green zone you only get a feeling of it. You might feel it as "bliss" or just "a abstract sensation"
In the deeper red zone this becomes different tho. There the abstract is still distant, yet you can still functionally access it. "The full potential" simply refers to a state where you feel as though you can "influence" more then what could be logically possible.
I think the full potential is in a way as abstract as a direct link to intent. Because to have a direct link you have to stop being the asshole that you are.
Like now my life becomes basically a shadow of what AP moves i was able to do in the past. Because I am not able to get as far, as I once did.
And the portal to the void is a real thing. I got a saw it once at the phantom copy of my old house. I was basically experimenting with trying to get the IOBs to show me if this freedom/immortality thing is real. I ended up practicing so hard that when I saw the phantom copy of my old room overlayed in the dark, I could use the sliding door pass to open what seem like a portal into the void. When I tried to go in, obviously nothing happened except I "knew" I was immortal. Or that right before the moment of death time would stop, and I would just disappear. Likely to a global disaster.
But as this was clearly a copy made by a IOB, because I felt there was a energetic vortex underneath the house. That makes me obviously sceptic about all the insight that I get from them.
I think techno has the best answer, though. I just want to add that your "why" is always going to be a bit personal.
As Dan talks about sometimes, people have book-deal mindsets and try to learn sorcery because of the wealth or popularity they think it will bring.
What I mean about it being personal is that everyone has a different reason to want freedom and a different idea of what freedom is.
You should always be reexamining your intentions regarding magic and make sure they come from a pure (non selfish) place.
I think its really simple. The reason to learn, the purest reason, is to learn.
I've been trying to sit with this idea for a while now, and would appreciate any further explanation members here can give: What does it mean to be truly non-selfish?
I am open to the idea, but I do not know how to have this attitude when doing the practices. I mean well, want goodness for goodness' sake, hope that every living being can have a pleasant existence etc... but I don't think that's the reason I am doing the practices.
I think if I were honest, I want to have my own power, and be free for myself. Is this a bad place to try and 'learn' sorcery from? thanks
this makes me think of the buddhist paradox, if you make non-suffering a goal that defeats the end because craving (wanting something) is what leads to suffering in the first place and NOT craving is the answer. so you're fucked if you want non-suffering, but if you don't want it, why would you bother with buddhist practice to begin with?
Just keep reading the books and one day your brain will click. "Goodness" is all relative. You need to understand that anything anyone wants is relative.
I appreciate this reply. Thank you
I like evolution
Not to be a total asshole anymore.
I don’t think sorcery can have goals outside of practitioners’ motivations. And the end is the end, so to have a goal situated there is rather pointless. So I think your question should really be “what purposes does sorcery serve for you?” Do you agree? If so, why should people tell you their motivations? Are you looking for a reason to practice?
nobody has to tell me anything, but for those who don't mind sharing, i'd love to know what motivates them.
and yes, i am looking for a reason to practice. because although we have various personal motivations, there is still a goal embedded in a practice itself. you pick the practice for personal reasons, because the goal embedded in the practice appeals to you but it isn't like there isn't some kind of goal.
for e.g., if you pick up martial arts, getting good at fighting is one of its purposes. you have your own reasons for wanting to get better at fighting but fighting is one of the embedded goals of the practice and that is one reason why you would take up the practice.
maybe i'm not articulating myself properly but i hope i get the point across.
Embedded goals can not be evaluated from outside of the system. End of suffering means nothing for someone who has not been drilled in the concept as a buddhist and being good at fighting means different things for a fighting expert and the one who wants to feel safe in the streets, etc. Don Juan got this very question. It became a favorite quote on dust jackets and posters: “For me there is only the traveling on paths that have a heart, blah blah”. Means nothing to most people, and very different things for various practitioners. It is typical to start out with a certain purpose, and then change your motivations as your involvement changes. Castaneda settled on calling sorcery a “cognitive system”. What is the purpose of one of those? The “warrior’s way” is a system to “hunt” and “store” “personal power”. If that’s your thing, there’s a purpose for you. If “freedom of perception” tickles your fancy, there’s another one. If “escaping the eagle” works for you, do that one! All things that don’t make sense outside of the system. The purposes of this subreddit, among other things, is to save the information handed down by Carlos Castaneda, Taisha Abelar, Florinda Donner and Carol Tiggs for the future, and to evaluate the options we have, such as darkroom practice, to experience some of those experiences ourselves that they talked about. Wanting magical experiences is thus another motivation.
i guess for me, my desire or goal behind it would be something like: to determine if magic exists or not, to see if there is anything beyond the bland and cold and purposeless materialist picture of the universe. intellectually i think there's more, but to actually experience it as a reality, not an abstract intellectual possibility. to KNOW there is something more to life than this mundane existing.
There is the crux of the matter. In order for “magic” to be experienced, you need to proceed as if it already is. Something that don Juan hammered into Carlos. But, the second crux of the matter is that you will not take Castaneda’s words for the truth, and you end up not making the effort. That’s why the discoveries of Daniel Lawton are so important to us as a guiding light. We need Han Solo to tell us: “It’s true [the Force], all of it.” But more so, we need others to replicate darkroom success, so that Dan is not written off as an extraordinary case of self-hypnosis. But even then, we must proceed as if magic was real, because that’s the nature of how reality is intended; which we must take others words for, since we can’t experience it ourselves until we do. A terrible situation when you only have one life to waste. So if you assume life is materialistic and meh, you are already defeated. Paraphrasing the Teachings: intending is having to believe.
i do agree with you, but it's a real conundrum, because so many other spiritual philosophies/religions claim the same: that you need faith before you can proceed and then that removes our ability to discriminate between different systems and decide where to put our entire efforts into. so what to do? how do we decide where to dedicate ourselves among these competing philosophies? i guess it can't be evidence, but i'm open to other ways. i'm desperate for spirituality and meaning in my life.
You are putting the cart in front of the horse. You need to get your depressive outlook in check before sorcery will become available to you. A ”Path with Heart” is not poetry. It’s a practical description of living in a way that leaves you free of concerns (caught-up energy), so that your Energy Body would want to come and hang out with you. ANY path that has heart, don Juan says. There he travels, looking, looking breathlessly. Castaneda does not give us a New Age Self-Help Program, he is describing another system of description, which includes assemblage points, energy bodies and relationships with infinity. Nothing of this is promising to save you, but all of it can become available to you, if you want it and put in the work.
Here's the thing. Other religions, philosophies, etc ask you to put a ton of faith into their system and only produce meager results, sometimes even decades later. Go look at Daniel Ingram (self-proclaimed advanced meditation master and "arhat") and his current interest in "magick". His results can't even match beginner level darkroom stuff even after decades of dedicated practice and 12+ hours of "intense concentration" fire kasina JUST to see some basic puffs and rudimentary IOBs.
This path here does not ask you to believe in and trust everything you read about. The content on this sub is meant to provide additional context from the readings, inspiration and to further guide you to the right intent for practice. We're about practical techniques which produce tangible magic and very real results if you simply dedicate a few weeks of your time for serious practice. Dedicate a few hours a day for a few weeks and magic will become perceivable, as long as you keep that inner bad player & pessimistic internal dialogue at bay. Your practice will eventually 'bleed' into your day-to-day life and you may come to realize that magic had always been all around you all along, you just learned to stop ignoring it.
thanks. very encouraging reply!
I wonder what kind of answer you were getting if you asked "what are the goals / is the goal of sorcery?" vs "what are your (practitioner's) goals / goal practicing sorcery?"
Freedom sounds fun but so do many things on paper.
Good analysis!
I certainly would’ve given a different answer (but it would have had to be more intensely personal, and I likely would not have even commented ☺️).
I'm not a practitioner. I read the forum mainly for insights into Castaneda's work.
But I think it's the same as playing soccer, playing the guitar, or whatever... because you like it. There are additional benefits, yes, but they are not the main reason.
Perhaps the grandiloquence of 'religions' promising salvation, enlightenment, etc., adds confusion. Do you know someone who has been 'saved' or 'enlightened'? No... it's a carrot on a stick; there doesn't seem to be any carrots here.
if you don't mind, what is your purpose for studying Castaneda? what do you like about it/what benefits do you derive from it?
I can tell you are in the wrong place if you are asking that question.
I think it is impossible to put it into words and even if you do, you will name it differently the more you grow.
The essence is connected to what many traditions reffer to as "Will" .