Dear community, How would you explain the contradiction between Don Juan's lesson of "Don't move the snail" from the second ring of power vs. the "Saying thank you" chapter from the active side of infinity? if you don't find a contradiction, how would you decide if a situation is either?
In general, I learned through the hardships of life that don't move the snail is the way to live by letting others be and do what they want and not trying to save them as we can't save them, as they are where they need to be and to move forward they need to find their own power and be impeccable, in helping them, we are robbing them of their chance to be implacable. Many times when I try to "help," I'm just avoiding myself and putting all my attention on someone else's problems to avoid facing myself.
Yet in life, if we live long enough, we are bound to make crucial errors to people we love, errors that can hunt us and prevent us from being in a sublime state of mind and entering Infiniti. For myself, I have a particular person whom I unconsciously did very wrong, and I'm in a position to make my ultimate gift and bounce; the gift is not a car or a coat; it's something much more significant. Yet the omens are mixed. Maybe mixed is the wrong word, as omens are never mixed, but I'm still dusting the link with spirit, so my ability to read signs is limited as my self-importance affects my decision-making.
So, I'm wondering if my giving will be "saying thank you" or just another attempt to move the snail.
If you've reached a similar point in your journey and have insights to share, I would greatly appreciate your perspective.
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"You did not understand," don Juan said patiently. "He is inaccessible because he's not squeezing his world out of shape. He taps it lightly, stays for as long as he needs to, and then swiftly moves away leaving hardly a mark."
Moving the snail is squeezing his world out of shape. He did not owe the snail anything, but he chose to interfere with it on its path of power. Practically speaking, I'd strongly suggest recapitulation first before making this ultimate gift, so that you are not attempting to "squeeze the world out of shape"/"move the snail" by making a gift out of self-importance rather than spirit. Unless you have recapitulated them, you won't be able to be free, because your energy and theirs is still tied together.
That's IMO.
Just commenting
Wow idr either of these in the books
But l love the snail one and totally understand it-agree
What is the thank you alternative and what do you mean by a physical move
I am sitting here trying to think of times when l have wronged someone
In each of the two cases that came to mind
All l can think of is that was me
That is where l was at
I had no malicious intent
And l may say that the ‘wrongness’ was in the mind of the receivers
Their perspective
And perhaps their feeling of self importance
We could turn that around and say the same thing about ourselves
Our idea of ‘wrongness’
Are they really
How do we measure that
Right
And
Wrong
In my perspective
There are only actions
Opportunities for learning and growth
Just occurred to me while in the shower
The thank you
My experience with thank you
I had two people that purposely made my paid work life almost unbearable for years
To the extreme extreme
They were out to get me
And had the worldly power and street smarts to do that
Those are the ones l want to thank
Be grateful to
For giving me the opportunity to stay and make it through
That is quite difficult to do
Carlos covered that at length in one of his last books, where "paying back debts" is covered.
I believe he bought one woman a car after telling her he'd give her anything she asked for.
An early lover he'd wronged perhaps.
The other was also a woman, so maybe it's typical of men to pile up debts over bad romances?
But then Taisha was also involved in paying back debts, except she let us know that it works both ways.
If someone wronged you, you can go get payback.
She described how she had to stand on a chair to reach high enough to slap her parents in the face.
Of course, if you do a very good job at recap, and then become silent enough to "see", you find out precisely what your debts are.
They stand out.
And the snail would just be a tiny form of debt you didn't figure out until you learned to "see".
It's not a contradictory topic at all.
Recap by the way, is something which becomes obvious once you learn to "see".
And wish you could sustain it longer, or select the form you prefer.
But can't because of your own trace awareness still stuck in the emanations.
Which is fully visible.
There's no "theories" in sorcery.
Just observations that are hard for beginners to understand.
But they will if they do actual work to learn to move their assemblage points using silence.
If they think too much, they'll pacify themselves and fall into the trap of pretending.
Which consumed our entire community for the first 54 years after the first book of Carlos.
Nothing but imagining and pretending was going on.
I was referring to debts I owe. I don't feel anyone owes me anything. Everyone i met on my journey is my teacher, and I'm not responsible for their actions, only for mine. They will face their forbearance, and I will face mine.
On behalf of Carlos? Isn't a warrior all for himself? Aren't you stepping a boundary by acting on behalf of Carlos? did Carlos ask you to act on his behalf? since we are all doing figures in front of the mirror? is there really anyone else to act on anyone behalf?
The whole goal of petty tyrants is to train the warrior to lose self-importance; "a warrior who stumbles upon a petty tyrant is a lucky one; if he doesn't, he needs to go out and find one". What makes a person into a petty tyrant is the need to control everything. Don Juan never wished harm over his capture; he kept his cool and, with timing, forbearance brought the results with the help of the spirit. If the warrior did indeed lose self-importance and learned to see, why would he go after anyone? Didn't he lose interest in the shortcoming of he's a fellow man? If he didn't lose interest, he would still have self-importance, which would be his downfall.
"If someone has really INJURED you this also needs to be paid back. The concept of paying debts is not a sentimental concept limited to returning the good connections. The point is to loosen all connections. If you are connected to someone who injured you, you may need to sever that connection by paying back the injury. So it is not a moral issue; it goes two ways."
I found this in the compendium, so what Dan said is right, with respect to Taisha.
A gunshot to the chest is an injury and Don Juan did trade death for death, he just was not affected energetically by it.
But will the recapitulation remove the connection to the tyrant? Or must there be an act performed by the victim to settle the debt?
it says "may" need to sever that connection by paying it back. Sorcery doesn't have perfect instructions for every situation. If you recapitulate and then decide you don't need to pay it back, who cares? don't act in that case.
You're pretending your sorcery.
Please don't try to use that against me. You won't like the results.
I'm not pretending at all. Just trying to save all the work he did, from being destroyed by such pretending.
It was all nearly lost due to that ugly tendency of people to make up stuff about being a "warrior" and "impeccable", instead of doing actual work.
And yes, Carlos did give me the task to act on his behalf.
Read around. I'm tired of going over it.
Maybe before you post again, learn something for real?
Carlos even gave me his allies. Which are being shared in here.
Anyone else from private classes could have joined to act on his behalf when he was gone, and he had 3 specifically in mind, with me being one of them.
But out of his 100 private students (Cholita claims only 50), all but Jadey, me, and Cholita are gone.
And refuse to come back.
They were all just pretending.
I'm not pretending, nor have I ever claimed to be a sorcerer; I'm just a man learning, reading some books, and chatting on Reddit. I don't have any special powers, and I don't see, but I salute you if you have abilities; I aspire to reach there one day.
You taking my comment as going against you is far away from my intention; I was simply asking questions to gain knowledge. I will not be bothering you anymore, and I wish you the very best.
Yea, yea. The worst are always innocent victims!
You're practically quoting Gazelle guy's lament here.
"I just wanted help..."
But it's obvious you don't!
And also add "I wish you the very best" to the list of things not ever to say in here.
(we don't like to have our legs pissed on).
Unknown to new people, the advanced in here often end up discussing what to do about bad players who just showed up. We have a private chat for that, which no one who isn't quite far along can see.
In case you never bothered to read the recommended links on the wiki on the side, a bad player is someone who doesn't actually want to learn sorcery at all.
Carlos himself warned us about those. He tried to teach for free in a public park in the 80s, and couldn't due to hecklers showing up.
"Bad players" are like a kid who joins the baseball team, so he can rob the snack stand.
Or one who joins, because the cheerleaders practice in the same field, on the same days.
Meaning, he doesn't want to play at all. He has other motivations.
That would be you!
One theory that came up last week (but couldn't be verified) is that there's a small "team" of trolls in here right now. Who go from one "spiritual" subreddit to the next, together, and suck up as much attention as they can before moving on.
The OP's text for this user deleted post:
"Don't move the snail vs saying thank you.
Dont move the snail vs saying thank you.
Dear community, How would you explain the contradiction between Don Juan's lesson of "Don't move the snail" from the second ring of power vs. the "Saying thank you" chapter from the active side of infinity? if you don't find a contradiction, how would you decide if a situation is either?
In general, I learned through the hardships of life that don't move the snail is the way to live by letting others be and do what they want and not trying to save them as we can't save them, as they are where they need to be and to move forward they need to find their own power and be impeccable, in helping them, we are robbing them of their chance to be implacable. Many times when I try to "help," I'm just avoiding myself and putting all my attention on someone else's problems to avoid facing myself.
Yet in life, if we live long enough, we are bound to make crucial errors to people we love, errors that can hunt us and prevent us from being in a sublime state of mind and entering Infiniti. For myself, I have a particular person whom I unconsciously did very wrong, and I'm in a position to make my ultimate gift and bounce; the gift is not a car or a coat; it's something much more significant and will move the snail in a physical sense. The omens are mixed. Maybe mixed is the wrong word, as omens are never mixed, but I'm still dusting the link with spirit, so my ability to read signs is limited as my self-importance affects my decision-making.
So, I'm wondering if my giving will be "saying thank you" or just another attempt to move the snail.
If you've reached a similar point in your journey and have insights to share, I would greatly appreciate your perspective."