Hi, I've been interested in dreaming since i was little. And had some interesting dreams, but mostly they mean nothing. And as I've read, since I'm a male, I don't really have a chance in dreaming. But I just wanted to ask anyways, I've found my hand around 6 times in the past month, first time they were kinda see thru and looked like shadow hooks can't explain it any better (and yes i was aware that i have to lift them up and focus on them and then tried it), but that night everytime I gained that counsiousness/rationality, the spot where I was changed and gave me what seemed to be a new challenge that didnt make sense, car doors didn't work (saw em but they just weren't there to feel or open). And then the 2nd time I found my hands again, started to focus on my envirionment (was in my friends yard) and the foundation of his house was paved with pavement bricks, and when i tried to focus it just began to fade and i felt I was waking up, but then I adjusted my eyes and it reappered, and I just though yeah that coulnt be, even though it was colourful and looked real. Then the next time I found my hands again, tried to feel the floor with my feet, trample it if thats the word, and it felt 110% real, but i was nearly awake, like aware im out here and in there, but it still felt real but it was more like surfing between being awake and sleeping. Then i thought well if I can find the hands can I also look at my feet? And sat on my butt lifted the feet up in the air, and the hands along with them, snd saw em. Then stood up (more like just was standing again, didnt stand up on my own) and thought oh yeah i need to look to an object grabbed something that was in front and started to focus on it and then at the background, bus just appeared in a different scene totally, in some kind of a massive building with a whole lot of people, it was what looked like some massive island, like a hospital or a school who knows. I wont go too much into that. And then after that i found my hands when i gained awareness in my house, looked at my feet again I had slippers on, my pops and brother were freezing over with frost, and then i asked them to light the fire. Went back to the kitchen and tried to turn on the light on the vent hood, it worked, and i remembered I wanted to try one thing always, look in the mirror, went to the mirror, and I was with a headlamp or something, and I was wearing a scarf up to my eyes, but had dirt marks all over like unwashed clothes. Then went to another mirror in the bathroom, and thought it all looks like home but what are the differences, saw some thingamabob on a washing machine and thought well that shouldnt be there, and then remembered pops had fixed the old silicone around the tub, and as soon as i wanted to try and see if it was the same there, I woke up.
There is much more to theese stories but I wont go too in depth, its not really doable to write them all up in detail and one after the other cause i didnt write many of em down, so i remember what i can and what happened after what is hard to remember. Oh and one night when i found my hands they had some yellow sparkles around em and i felt like i could do something but actually couldnt do much. And the last time i found em was a few days ago, but i remember basically nothing of it just a few images. And yes everytime I found em or looked at my envirionment, it was because i remembered that i had to do that, but it seems that i can only dream like this every few days, and only get real awareness every week or so.
So my questions are, how would you go about gaining better memory in dreams? And how do yiu enter em more frequently? Basically it seems thst it doesnt matter much what i do in the real world (what i eat, if i drink beforehand or stuff like that) i just enter randomly and cant do so also randomly. But everytime i do, and when it feels real and I have rationality, i feel like im nearly awake and could move my body or mumble irl while screaming in there. But when i do enter the time feels real different, like the most vivid and longest dreams happen in 40min-hour, and it feels like hours or days.
Sorry for such a long text, and ask questions if you want me to elaborate or clear something up, english is not my first language. Thank you
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P.S. One time i got stuck for what felt like 2 days. I started gaining awareness in some market, and 2 men arrived and poked me and one lady before me with some medicine, and i appeared in some building, and it all felt too real while knowing something was out there, i felr as if i've forgotten and I couldnt exit, i tried screaming, banging on the walls, but couldnt even let out a groan irl, felt like it was waaay too far away. A lot more happened. But after I woke up only an hour had passed.
>So my questions are, how would you go about gaining better memory in dreams? And how do yiu enter em more frequently?
After all the preamble... Engage in the waking practices as well...
Sorry but what does preamble mean? Also my situation right now is that I couln't practise much irl, that's why i was interested in dreaming. Since I live in a small cold place with my religious parents. And tensegrity or darkroom would raise many questions that I just could not answer. I'll have my place in a year or two, but for now there isn't much choice since locking myself in a room raises suspition. For those wondering I'm not a teen, just my financial situation is not the best so had to move back in after coming back from abroad.
Preamble is a fancy word for introduction. It was a very long post.
Tensegrity and darkroom are not the only waking practices by a long shot. If you want to make progress you'll need to adapt to your situation, but you can do stuff like gazing and recapitulation too.
Also, lifesaver pass looks almost the same as chinese warmups, so unless your parents are extremely religious, aka terrified of anything resembling another religion, lifesaver pass is 100% feasible.
Yeah that is the case, anything odd like yoga might scare em. And i wrote a long post so that i could fit as many details as possible without it being too too long. As ive seen if you just find your hands without trying you basically are an impostor or a bad player. So I wanted to make sure those who read understand that i was trying and progress was happening even if the progress i saw was useless. Im not after attention and as i wrote to the mods im all for just chatting and getting tips in the private messages, not for all to see. Am just confused why the post got removed and what exactly did i say that is wrong. Thank you for your answer
If you aren't going to practice the waking practices as well you will not succeed. You either make it work, or you don't, easy enough.
If you are going to continue down this dreaming path, I suggest you actually follow the instructions in the book, rather than making up your own follow-up instructions after looking at your hands.
You are supposed to look from your hands to objects and back to your hands as often as needed.
Its just odd that if others might have not succeeded, its a "fact" that no one can. And if there is a possibility and someone is willing imo it should be ezplored not shut down.
Also i looked to the hands and to the background then to the hands then grabbed an object and the scene changed.
Im just exploring.
Also did don juan himself teach carlos rhe map and the darkroom etc?
Who said anything about "shut down"? Do what you want, I don't care. You wanted advice, but then once you get the advice, you want to piss on it.
"When you first started dreaming you were using my personal power, that's why it was easier," he said. "Now you are empty. But you must keep on trying until you have enough power of your own. You see, dreaming is the not-doing of dreams, and as you progress in your not-doing you will also progress in dreaming. The trick is not to stop looking for your hands, even if you don't believe that what you are doing has any meaning. In fact, as I have told you before, a warrior doesn't need to believe, because as long as he keeps on acting without believing he is not-doing."
"as you progress in your not-doing you will also progress in dreaming"
aka you need to have waking not-doings as well.
Sorry if i seem like im pissing on you advice. Not my intention. Not my first language so i just text how i would in my language while translating it in the head. So in my culture sentences are more provoking id guess. Thanks for your advice. Im not going to waste any more of your time. Did not mean to show any disrepect. Im just confused why if you do what it said you can, others say you shouldnt and always do waking practises. Even if sleeping ones work and depending on the person and on how brain works might even work better in the long run. Im not after having results as fast as possible, and also i think it depends who youre willing to work with and your view on reality, whats right/wrong.
Absolutely incorrect. Who said "always" do waking practices? Dan has said to someone who said whether they should give up looking for their hands, to never give it up. You do waking practices and look for your hands. I also said "as well". You do as many of the practices as you can fit in, that's all.
He also said, in some post that most find their hands one time in half a year, and if you find em once a month youre lucky. And you need to find them as much as 6 times a night. And there are no other posts from people doing it really, it mightve just been removed. But the question is why remove a post where someone says theyve suceeded. Also i understand that waking practises and sarkroom from the views of the group is more favorable to put your energy to, but as ive said new people are born everyday, and if they challenge some views, people should discuss, not just state that its not important or something and do whats written in the group by others. Just my 2 cents, no disrespect ment. Also my account seems to be flagged now or something, cant reply to privates etc, picture stops dissapearing.
You wanted to know how to progress further and I answered it right from the start. The fact that you didn't like that answer doesn't mean it's not the answer. Reddit has automatically flagged your account, the mods had nothing to do with it. Reddit thinks that you've posted here before and been banned before too.
I also said I wanted to have a discussion which carlos himself always did with don juan. And he seemed undestanding, just wouldnt let him enjoy it too much. He said how and what to do and let him try and if he got there quicker he said that doesnt happen, but then it did. And have not been banned before. Atleast to my knowledge. I see everything as a piece of the puzzle, and dont think that i did not read or didnt like what you had to say. All im saying is discussions and alternative methods are vital for expanding and understanding. People need to explore not just follow everythinf to a t. Sorry for my odd personality. As ive said, no disrespect ment.
>People need to explore not just follow everythinf to a t.
Funny, you say people need to explore, and, here you are, not exploring. You've tried exactly one thing from the books and gotten some results, and then when you want advice, you reject it, even though it is from exactly the same source. Before I even knew this subreddit existed, I was getting visible magic while awake from my practice, and after I found this place, I added on additional practices, not continued with only the thing I was doing before.
Im not saying ive not tried anything and not seen real stuff. Alls im saying is sleeping dreaming without certain practises, doesnt discredit it totally just because someone is a male or someone else says it does. If dreaming is the path "with heart" and a person has not grown enought to want to expand to other practises, there is no point in accusing of being lazy or that he rejects everything. That would be hipocritical. Because people in the sub reject what they dont like all the time. And prolly half of the members dobt even believe stufd is possible. Was darkroom even in the books? Did Don Juan introduce us to it or how did it come about?
>Did Don Juan introduce us to it or how did it come about?
Read The Eagle's Gift, The Intricacies of Dreaming.
For the rest, you wanted the advice how to get better at it. Don Juan told us right from the start, "as you progress in your not-doing you will also progress in dreaming". If you want to ignore what Don Juan said, I don't know how to help you. How about you progress in your not-doings and then you'll progress in dreaming?
Alright i just started the fire within if im not mistaken, and i think that the eagles gift goes after it. Ill give it a read.
Also from what i understand there are many paths, which lead to the same spot, but only a few are "mapped out".
And yes, thank you for the advice, dont think im just rejecting it. People often read something and "digest it" over some time. Some take longer, some get to it quicker.
Also the not doing has many ways, and the doing should also lead to somewhere if i understand correctly.
Dreaming on its own also should be doable depending on ones personality and inner workings. You just cant choose much what you see, and it all depends what your intentions are and how you view right wrong. You get choices in dreams once you start trying. And from what i understand IOB's are not the key, they are a fasttrack towards knowledge. Maybe im also mistaken
Every practice that you've been rejecting is a not-doing in itself. So the simple fact of the matter is that if you say that you will progress without other practices, you are rejecting it. Don Juan frequently rapped Carlos on the head over some of his stupid commentaries...
If your comments aren't acknowledging that these are practices you should be adding on, it's getting to be a waste of time.
Take as long as you need to get yourself straight, but all of the practices is what you should be doing, not just one practice.
And 4 gates dreaming is not doing of dreaming? What would actually be doing and not not-doing? In dreaming i mean.
And thanks for the detailed comments, i like it, a discussion. And not saying i will or wont do, before you do somethinf you should actually connect the dots and see if it is the path that you could take with the heart.
Or atleast thats how Id think. Im not all knowing, so i make many mistakes, even in this discussion. Forgive me for my ignorance
"When you first started dreaming you were using my personal power, that's why it was easier," he said. "Now you are empty. But you must keep on trying until you have enough power of your own. You see, dreaming is the not-doing of dreams, and as you progress in your not-doing you will also progress in dreaming. The trick is not to stop looking for your hands, even if you don't believe that what you are doing has any meaning. In fact, as I have told you before, a warrior doesn't need to believe, because as long as he keeps on acting without believing he is not-doing."
dreaming is the not-doing of dreams
In the books, dreaming is italicized, it just doesn't copy over the formatting, so yes, 4 gates dreaming is the not doing of dreams.
>And not saying i will or wont do
Then there is nothing more to say, even Don Juan agrees...
"You said that you wanted to learn about plants," he said calmly. "Do you want to get something for nothing? What do you think this is? We agreed that you would ask me questions and I'd tell you what I know. If you don't like it, there is nothing else we can say to each other."
Thank you for such a long explanation, clears things up. And also I asked what would be the doing of dreams? If there is not doing which is looking for the hands bringing in rationaly, what would the "doing" in dreams be?
Thanks
dreams.
Are you just saying that cause you,re annoyed with all my questions or is the "doing" not explored yet? Because regular dreams to me would seem like theyre in the middle of doing and not doing, since theyre just regular. Lucid dreaming would fall under the middle imo between not doing and doing dreams. Id think the doing of dreams would be a totally different thing than dreamin, or not-doing dreaming.
Ive no intentions of making anyone angry. Just a discussion. Ill screw off if you wish, no worries. Thanks
I was perfectly succinct, you are just having too much stupidity right now. I am not annoyed with your questions at all.
A man of knowledge, for instance, knows that the rock is a rock only because of doing, so if he doesn't want the rock to be a rock all he has to do is not-doing. See what I mean?"
Now, let's try that again:
A man of knowledge, for instance, knows that *a dream* is *a dream* only because of doing, so if he doesn't want the *dream* to be a *dream* all he has to do is not-doing. See what I mean?"
I can see that you are not in the least bit angry by the first sentence.
But that is alright, a new person asking shit that seems obvious does that to people.
And yeah i see now what you mean. But it just does not seem right.
For example if you were awake in a dream and had a copy of the house, and could do stuff there and feel everything, fix anything you wish and could bring back all of those memories, like a 2nd life up in dream life, that'd still be not-doing of dreams? Or getting tips and information without any iobs just by some voice that appears, not in words but you understand it perfectly.
Also why the womb? It creates life from whats given, not on its own, so would make sense that males also have the power of "giving life" just a different step in the process, no? Like a double edged sword, 2 steps in the proccess of making a life.
Just seems like a hazing ritual for young girls that can dream the same stuff but more intensely and faster because they are told they can. Males cant because its said they cant. I dont doubt there are many people male and female out there that just dont go into discussions about their experiences for fear of being met with such criticism that happens by the members that think there is "only one way" of it and that is the only truth. If the reality is not physical and just "mental" opinions matter and words matter aswell.
Plus i dont doubt there are other ways of magic just not as well known to us, some because theyre not explored, others bcs of other reasons.
Would you think if this was the only true way to work with reality and was the right way, it'd be allowed on reddit, facebook, youtube and instagram? Plus the books published worldwide? I doubt it.
You are too sensitive by far, are you even interested in sorcery? You are going off into la-la land because you were told to practice the waking practices. What did you even come here for? To have everyone congratulate you on your tremendous success?
It's all way too basic... Just practice the waking practices and stop crying. Your internal dialogue, the foreign installation, is making you resist.
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Since you like dreaming so much why don't you do just lucid dreaming on your own? It seems to me that you are not that interested to this path but just to watch dreams.
Sleeping dreaming was not the central practice Carlos or the others did, it was a part of the whole process. If you can't make up the situation to do at least gazing or darkroom and tensegrity (which you can mask as tai chi and meditation or whatever to others) then you are not really practising.
The best experiences Carlos had were as he was awake, and that's what we are aiming for. We do waking dreaming and we learn to move our Accemblance point with our own efforts.
Well im not interested in just having fun "lucid dreaming" never was. Ofcourse its fun, but its just that, fun. I'd be interested in different possibilities within the dreams, not just iob worlds and such. You could do much more practical things also, like engineering and such. And then bring it to life. Might seem weird but hard to translate what im thinking.
Carlos was taught by Don Juan, but i dont doubt he had some of his own additions, and disagreements. If something is real and repeatable, no one should be afraid of pretenders, since their stories would fall apart over a period of time. And discussions matter, thats how it can be expanded and improved upon. Also he mapped out everything etc, and no one else built on that? From what i understand this was Carlos's addition to what Juan taught him? Or am i mistaken and the darkroom and the map was given by Juan himself?
As ive said countless times, no disrespect to anyone, just trying to have a discussion.
Well darkroom and waking dreaming are best for practical things , engineering, having the iobs give you solid advice, finding solutions, inspiration, new ideas. You can find Dan's experience with it and many of us have a ton of these experiences that we don't share publicly. Of course that's not our goal, it's just the hard earned treat for our efforts.
If your intent is to experience different possibilities within dreams , just do lucid dreaming. For real no-one that is a serious practitioner will take you seriously with that. We are not interested to persuade you or teach you. We do this discussion now but don't expect that we will spend more energy to this. We are all learning on different stages and noone is a teacher.
The J curve was given from Carlos to the private classes to describe the different ap positions. The practices that Carlos was insisting people do ,just like him or the other apprentices did, was recapitulation, tensegrity and inner silence. Darkroom is tensegrity while forcing silence in the dark and after you are done with tensegrity , gazing. So you see we have compressed the practices together. Carlos did his absolute best to transfer everything Don Juan and others taught him to the group and eventually after many years there is success.
In the end we won't tell you what to do, we will tell you what is the best to do that is working. We are all by ourselves. Go take a look in the seaech bar about other sleeping dreaming posts and see how it goes for them to take a taste of it.
First of all thank you, I dont eant you guys to waste energy on me, im just a person who likes to discuss stuff like this with people who know much more.
But theoretically you could reach something without the IOB, or is it the only way, or just the only "known" way?
And I cant find many posts like this, probably because most of them got removed, to not confuse others, but in the long run who knows if leaving it up or deleting it is worse.
And yeah the J curve, it was not from Juan, it was from Carlos, so theoretically we have no clue what Juan would think abt it, we can just guess right?
And yeah, I have not shared many of mine either, just the ones with hands and focusing on the envirionment, since i saw the replies to anything other than the hands.
Thanks. Also I asked the other guy, but you might know aswell, if the art of not doing is 4 gates what would be the art of doing in dreams?
Also i read somewhere than danl999 thought if any saintly magicians appeared theyd need to get together and tear em apart or something, how is that good? Like if there is no truth to something, people dont attsck it or despise it for no reason. Much appreciated.
There is a great lack of understanding from what you are saying about what we do and what this is all about. We can't educate you, if you want indeed to practice you must study the info here, the books and practice to gain understanding. Note also that our approach of practice is fixed and successful as it is and im saying that bc it seems like you negotiate your opinion of things so we can accept the way you want to do things as it shows in your convo with emergency-total.
Also I don't understand what you are saying on your last 2 paragraphs.
My opinion it was just Carlos didn't write about it although he mentioned many things about it in the books. But again so what? It doesn't lose validity, it's working as its said to do so.
Anyways I'm ending this convo here. Take our way or leave it. Either way, good luck.
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And I admire that you had those experiences even before, thats interesting to hear, and mustve been hard to achieve and must have required a lot of hard work. Im not saying that i dont believe you etc, and certainly nit attacking you or the sub.
Huh my replies aint even going thru thats odd. But yeah, it depends on the intention of learning, if its just enjoying what you see without enjoying, or something else.
P.s. if i wanted attention id post this to some odd lucid dreaming subreddit, but thats not what im after. Got nothing to gain from that. Im just a dude who loves to dream and the concept of it. Also that was like my lifelong interest, but i never even wanted to try lucid dreaming or stuff like that. Stuff is too superficial
The stated purpose of this subreddit is to aid in restoring the reputation of Carlos Castaneda and the knowledge he imparted, by pragmatically applying that knowledge IN PRACTICE. This means that we are sticking to what really works, as proven by direct experience by long-practicing members. We need to make clear our intent to move away, as a community, from the mistakes others have made. Content that is at-odds with this purpose will, upon review, be removed.