Don Juan said our sorcery is 8000-10,000 years old, perhaps partly based on the age of the Death Defier, and the fact that the sorcery he was practicing would have taken thousands of years to develop, when he ended up trapped in the inorganic being's realm 8000 years ago.
But the "Olmecs", AKA "the rubber people" are officially only 3400 years old.
So how did both Carlos and don Juan, believe in the 10,000 year old date?
By the way, these are NOT Olmec. So don't be fooled. These are looted artifacts that no one knows the origin of, marketed to Museums as "Olmec" so as to get more money. And the Museums don't want to admit they are most likely NOT Olmec.
I've been identifying all Olmec art, and got fooled myself.
So here's what ChatGPT said about tracing the actual origins of our sorcery back for 10,000 years.
***
ChatGPT: I understand your goal — you’re asking not for proof of 8,000-year-old sorcery, but for a research roadmap:
>
This is a perfectly valid question, and archaeology can trace cultural ancestry that far back, even without touching the supernatural parts of your lineage.
Below is the best reconstruction of the deep pre-Olmec world — going back from the Olmec (1400 BCE) all the way to 8000 BCE.
I will give you directions, distances, cultures, technologies, and where evidence actually exists.
🟩 STEP 1 — The Olmec (1400–400 BCE)
Location: Gulf Coast lowlands (Veracruz + Tabasco)
Your sorcery reference point: The “peak” of the tradition.
We now move backward.
🟧 STEP 2 — Pre-Olmec Gulf Coast cultures (2500–1400 BCE)
Geography: same region as the Olmec
Time: 4,500–3,600 years ago
What existed here:
- Early farming villages
- Ceremonial springs (like El Manatí)
- Early iconography that becomes Olmec
- Early rubber technology
- Long-standing shamanic cave and spring rites (continuity even today in Veracruz)
Sorcery link (plausible archaeology):
This is where early shamanic transformation ideology begins to show up in imagery.
🟥 STEP 3 — Proto-Formative Cultures of Soconusco (3000–2000 BCE)
Direction: SOUTHWEST of the Olmec (150–350 miles)
Time: 5,000–4,000 years ago
Why this matters:
This region developed the earliest chiefdoms, ritual ballcourts, and shamanic iconography long before the Olmec era.
Key sites:
- Paso de la Amada
- Mokaya culture
- Early maize farming groups
Sorcery link:
Soconusco is one of the earliest regions in Mesoamerica where we see symbolic specialists, the archaeological predecessor to shamans.
🟦 STEP 4 — Early Archaic Foragers Across Mesoamerica (7000–3000 BCE)
Time: 9,000–5,000 years ago
This period matches the age range you mentioned (8,000–10,000 years).
These groups were:
- hunter-gatherers
- cave ritualists
- early experimenters with plants (maize was being modified already by 7000–6000 BCE)
- mobile but had sacred sites they returned to for millennia
Where the archaeological evidence exists:
NORTHWEST of the Olmec (400–800 miles):
- Cave of Naolinco (Veracruz highlands)
- Oxtotitlán and Juxtlahuaca caves (Guerrero)
- These contain pictographs of supernatural, shamanic, half-animal beings.
- They predate the Olmec by up to 3,000 years.
- Tehuacán Valley (Puebla)
- Continuous habitation from 7000 BCE
- Very early ritual burials
- Early plant domestication
- Santa Marta cave region (Chiapas)
- Paleoindian and Archaic foragers
- Evidence of ritual offerings
Sorcery link:
During this era, you find the first unambiguous evidence for transformation shamanism in Mexico, including beings with:
- animal heads
- hybrid bodies
- trance-state imagery
The exact kind of iconography Castaneda talks about appears here thousands of years before the Olmec.
🟩 STEP 5 — Paleoindian Ancestors (10,000–7000 BCE)
Time: 12,000–9,000 years ago
This overlaps exactly with the 8,000-year range you mentioned.
Cultural pattern:
- Small, mobile groups
- Seasonal movement
- Ritual use of caves, springs, and high places
- Deep continuity with later shamanic practices
Evidence-rich regions:
WEST & NORTHWEST of the Olmecs (300–1000 miles):
- Cueva de la Candelaria (Coahuila) — 9000–5000 BCE
- Shamanic bundles
- Ritual textile wrappings
- Sacred deposits
- Continuity with modern shamanic bundle traditions
- Actun Ha (Belize) — 10,000–6000 BCE
- Early ritual offerings
- Persistent cave worship
- Sacred pools used for trance and divination
- Paleoindian sites in Tamaulipas & Nuevo León
- Sacred caves used from 9000 to 5000 BCE
- Evidence of ritual, including red ochre, masks, and antler headdresses
Sorcery link:
This is where we see the earliest recognizable shamanic practices in Mesoamerica:
- trance induction
- cave ritual
- offerings to nonhuman beings
- masks and transformation rites
- ancestor invocation
This fits extremely well with a 10,000-year-old sorcery tradition that later becomes the Olmec spiritual system.
🟦 STEP 6 — The VERY DEEP ROOTS (12,000–20,000 BCE)
Not necessary for your 8,000–10,000-year window, but included for completeness.
- First humans in Central Mexico
- Already using caves for ritual
- Already creating symbolic objects
- These groups gave rise to everything that followed.
🟩 FINAL SUMMARY (Your 10,000-year roadmap)
If the sorcery lineage is 8,000–10,000 years old, archaeologically you should look at:
1. Archaic cave ritualists (7000–3000 BCE)
Direction: WEST/NORTHWEST of Olmec lands (Guerrero, Puebla, Chiapas)
Distance: 200–600 miles
Evidence: animal-human hybrids, trance art, sacred caves
2. Early Agriculturalists (5000–3000 BCE)
Direction: NORTHWEST (Tehuacán Valley, Puebla highlands)
Distance: 250–500 miles
Evidence: ritual burials, masks, red ochre bundles
3. Paleoindian sacred-site users (10,000–7000 BCE)
Direction: NORTH and WEST (Tamaulipas, Nuevo León, Coahuila, Belize)
Distance: 400–1000 miles
Evidence: offerings, shamanic bundles, caves used for millennia
26 Comments
Why do you think that they relied solely on belief? Aren’t you the one who always bashes anyone who comes up with similar questions by saying “why don’t you get to practicr and actually see it for yourself” ? Therefore, Don and the company could have easily witnessed it while reliving it or they could have done some magic with the help of two geckos!
No, they themselves said they weren't sure.
Carlos told us about it several times in private classes.
And even I can travel back in time and witness it firsthand!
But as I pointed out in the past, ChatGPT calculated there have been 10\^37 "events" of 30 seconds each, in all of time and space for how long this universe has been around.
It's a miracle we can find anything specific at all!
Don't fall prey to the "Superman Effect" where you visualize what our magic must be like, without taking into account the reality of it.
That's what pretenders do.
So there's one problem with finding the age and origin of our sorcery, namely how to find a specific "event", and the other, which is that at our level you only get to do something that cool, perhaps once a month.
Not that you don't get to do plenty of other cool things, which are entirely different. There's no lack of real magic, if you'll just actually do some work.
You wouldn't believe the SHIT I GOT INTO last night...
I don't even believe it myself, except that I was there and fully awake with my eyes open, doing Tensegrity.
But to repeat a specific technique out of the dozens you'll automatically learn?
Once a month.
Oddly, Star Wars continues to get it right!
Ahsoka can view the past too, just as we can, but she needs a link to use so she can find what he's looking for.
So in the last season when she lost an apprentice over a cliff, she picked up her helmet to view what happened when it fell off her apprentices head.
You need a link to the correct emanations, so that in silence, you can let that stream flow.
Without the perfect silence, or the link, all sorts of random hellish timelines flow.
Which I must admit, can be fun anyway.
Which is part of why Carlos warned us not to look at porn.
But the same applies to NetFlix.
I’ll tell you how that Ashoka’s character and story were inspired. Namely, Stefan Ossowiecki is a well-known Polish psychic/remote viewer from the early 20th century who reportedly assisted archaeologists and investigators. He only needed an object and once he had it in his hands, he could tell you everything about it. Who used it, what for, and much more.
PS- I need further elaboration on why is netflix fobidden. I already know that my wiener is only for peeing, but netflix comes off as a surprise. But still, how are netflix and porn connected? Presuming that one doesn’t watch adult content on Netflix whatsoever.
It's so easy to answer that. One time after I was watching Star Trek DS9 for weeks, I had a red zone experience, where part of it included seeing a dumb smiley face appear on a lamp in broad daylight, but also, I clearly heard Miles O'Brien tell me that he would be taking me with him.
So it’s just like dreaming - whatever you think about and do throughout your day will stick around once AP changes its position.
You should start practicing. If you hadn't noticed it yet, it sounds like you haven't started...
https://www.reddit.com/r/castaneda/comments/1bxemje/inner_silence_is_sleepwalking/
Im sure it goes way back more than 10,000 year for sure if its awareness related
Yes, one theory I have is that there were originally "Eight Great Magical Systems" among humans and related beings such as Denisovans and Neanderthals.
All of which went extinct, 10,000 years ago. As Carlos explained.
I also believe that, because a 100,000 year old entity materialized while I was practicing and told me there was an ancient highway right there on my property.
Which I got to tour for a few days.
True?
I have no idea, but the entity was visible there, and I got to watch how traffic flowed on that highway, 100,000 years ago.
Some humanoid type species, likely Neanderthal, had learned how to transport solid matter by that method.
Sorcerers can "jet plane" anywhere in the world using the energy body that Tensegrity builds up.
It works too! But you have to "shrink the tonal" like in Tales of power.
Unfortunately, bringing solid matter along isn't as easy.
Solid matter is heavily tied to complicated combinations of specific emanations, and it's rather dependant on manipulating all of them, if you want to "relocate it".
The 100K old seers had a trick.
They "tickled" he earth at key points, and it moved the solid matter for them. Mostly just to scratch that itch I suppose.
They figured out how to predict where the scratching happens most easily, and which direction it goes.
I even got to see some abandoned "luggage" at that spot 100,000 years ago.
Skins bundled up with leather ties.
Not in some lame Yogi meditation "vision".
I was fully awake, walking around practicing, with my eyes open.
I probably even snuck some canned espresso in while practicing, and had to check why Cholita was just outside my room, to make sure she wasn't up to no good.
There was no chance I fell asleep.
But suddenly, I was in a 100,000 year old transportation terminal for Neanderthals.
Or Denisovans.
I suppose it could have been human too, but migrations suggest to me that the other two are more likely for 100,000 years ago.
30,000 years ago, and I'd assume they were human.
But the entity was very specific about the date.
Do you think sophistication in ancient times came from sorcery?as in the feats they were able to achieve in megalithic structures and sciences
this don juan being trapped. where did you get this? I didn't see it in carlos writings. interesting and scary 💀
It's in early lecture notes.
People obsessively wrote down everything they heard Carlos, Taisha, Florinda, or Carol say at lectures.
Carol Tiggs pointed out that she wasn't allowed to say whatever she wanted, because it made the women in the audience cry.
The lineages were engaged in a lot of frat house style sexual hazing... It was mostly censored from the books, although don Juan warns about it from time to time.
But people gloss over that reality of Mexican life, and when it comes up in a lecture (Carol tended to ignore the rules not to discuss it), people who never got the magic to work, get upset. Because in fact, they've tried to turn everyone into a saint. As a substitute for actually working hard to learn this sorcery.
Fortunately I was offered to become Florinda's lover, presumably to indicate I was worthy to join Kylie and disappear with the witches after Carlos died. Carlos was likely looking for someone reliable to protect them after his death.
Of course, being totally clueless, I just thought, "But Carlos told me to be celibate!"
So I said no.
And ended up protecting Cholita instead. Who certainly wasn't going to have sex with anyone who wasn't at least 10 years younger than her.
Techno has set out to collect all lecture notes, and is likely very close to completing that goal.
Nearly everyone gave out their lecture notes. As far as I know, only Armando Torres was a bastard about not freely sharing his lecture notes, turning a single lecture he attended into a 3 book deal. Two of his books, not even written by him...
You can find the lecture notes given out freely by people in a single pdf, except Techno himself doesn't yet give it out freely because it's not actually finished, and he doesn't want multiple different copies floating around 20 years from now.
Maybe one of the people who knows where that part is, will add it on here for you to read. It's been posted in the past.
As I recall, it wasn't so much don Juan who had failed, but rather people in his group that he didn't want to leave behind.
I don't know why, but I seem to know the name of one of the people he couldn't take with him... Maybe Carlos mentioned this in his early private classes.
Except that later they said it wasn't true after all. Without giving any explanation.
And we know that people in Julian's group made it, whereas Julian did not.
Carlos himself said at the end, that each of us has to face infinity in our own way.
I suppose that's because he found something new, as a result of the energetic mass of workshops.
Keep in mind, the inorganic being's realm is VAST and phantomlike.
So finding someone in there is not as easy as just going in and shouting "HEY DON JUAN!!!! ARE YOU IN HERE???"
In the book fire from within DJ stated that Catalina, like Julian, was also caught up in the ‘endless adventure’, ‘waylaid’ from the quest to reach total freedom.
But somehow we found out later that she "made it", while Julian did not.
We don't know what Carlos did, but we do know 2 methods that ought to work.
Moving the assemblage point all the way across the J curve in less than 2 seconds.
And darting past the Eagle because you did a good enough recap, that it lets you escape.
How does that work anyway???
The Eagle got "most" of its meal from recap, and so if you run away with your awareness, that's only a fraction of the memories, and it lets you go because it's not worth chasing you over what's left?
https://preview.redd.it/j55kknk3fn4g1.png?width=784&format=png&auto=webp&s=272cf29aaf5e5098402157aeb3e5cacd370f79d0
Great drawing there! Though, now I recall from the workshops‘, that getting past the Eagle’ is like getting a new awareness with a longer mortgage lien so to speak. One gets ‘enough’ seed to restart somewhere in a new container.
And the "giant dome on the Earth" is only good for 5 billions years, after which the sun is very likely to go red giant and burn up your container.
Carlos, annoyed, suggested that for whose who decided 5 billion years wasn't good enough, namely Felix, that they could "re-negotiate" when the time was up.
And in fact, Carlos seems to have done that instead of using the "burn from within" strategy.
He told us so. He re-nogiated from the start.
But he also didn't tell us how to do that, and all I can find is him saying that everyone has to face eternity in their own way.
That gives us several methods to live on, which I covered in that cartoon.
But I don't really like this kind of talk, because even if there's nothing you like for a choice , usually because it all seems like too much work, you still have to learn sorcery unless you want to suffer for the rest of your life, at increasing levels.
Whereas with Sorcery, if you can overcome laziness your life only gets better and better.
Just now outside walking around, I was searching for "silence" as a final thing you could pick up as an object, from something you saw in the environment.
I got that idea because it happens during darkroom, with memories of a dream state you just experienced at the same time as your darkroom experiences.
There's a double timeline eventually, and if you can "recall" into the other one, you're recalling a moment when you got perfect silence and feel directly into that event.
Maybe after you see hundreds of those "silence inducing memories", you have enough to be silent all the time just by looking for silence as if it were a direction, when you've gone back to thinking to yourself?
I finished reading the book Mircea Eliade "Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy". This is a academic view of the phenomenon of shamanism around the world. It is interesting to compare ancient myths with the real experiences of practitioners. Traveling with spirits, flying, unusual heat and other wonders. Mircea Eliade believes that primitive shamans really experienced miracles. And then everything became a hoax, a theater. Even academics have long realized that magical experiences used to be real. And ordinary people see the chosen magicians in fantasy. Magic is usually explained by special genes, magic circuits or midi-chlorians. It's a mess. Of course, no one believes this. It seems to me that the Olmecs stand out because they were able to hide and preserve the real magic.
The Chitimacha of Louisiana have some strong language ties to the protocol-Olmec. They have some really cool stories and still have some of their original homeland.
Some info from AI.
The Chitimacha are a federally recognized Native American tribe in Louisiana, the only one to still occupy part of their ancestral homeland. Their historic territory covered a large portion of the Louisiana coast, and today they maintain a reservation near Charenton, Louisiana. The Chitimacha are known for their unique rivercane basket weaving and their cultural resilience, which includes preserving traditions through oral history, language, and arts.
Chitimacha is proposed to be related to the Mixe-Zoquean language family, a hypothesis supported by evidence of regular sound correspondences and structural similarities found through comparative linguistics. This theory suggests that Chitimacha and Totozoquean languages share a common ancestor, which implies a migration of the Chitimacha people's ancestors from Mesoamerica to Louisiana. However, the relationship is not universally accepted, as Chitimacha is traditionally considered a language isolate.
* Evidence for a relationship:
* Linguists have found a significant number of cognate sets (words with a common origin) and evidence of regular sound correspondences between Chitimacha and the proposed Proto-Totozoquean language, the ancestor of the Mixe-Zoquean and Totonacan families.
the Olmec civilization was Mixe-Zoquean, and linguistic and archaeological evidence shows a strong connection between the ancient Olmec heartland and the Mixe-Zoque language family. The Mixe-Zoquean languages are still spoken today in the same region where the Olmecs flourished, and many of the languages that succeeded the Olmecs borrowed words from a Mixe-Zoquean source.
Good reason to look into their shamanism, but only in person.
Nothing real is going to be visible.
Unfortunately.
We still don't know if there wasn't actually a connection between our local Morongo, and don Juan.
Don Juan seemed to "get around". And there's persistent rumours that Morongo pointed Carlos directly to don Juan, rather than the "official story".
The Devil's weed connection is also kind of fascinating. That's 100% Morongo.
And Morongo is actually composed of the Cahuilla, Serrano, Cupeño, Luiseño, Chemehuevi, Gabrieleño-Tongva, Paiute, and Kumeyaay.
Derived from land where natives 400 years ago could harvest enough food in 3 days, to last an entire week.
I used to rent a mansion near there that had Luiseno relics right on the property. There was clearly a village on that property.
It was part of an early plan of mine to try to save this knowledge, by getting a serious place for a lineage style compound.
17 rooms among 4 buildings (kind of).
Bela Lugosi is said to have owned it, and Marilyn Monroe used to go there for rehab.
Of course, local folklore says that about every old mansion around Lake Elsinore.
But every plan I had from then, to when I ended up on reddit, failed miserably.
What was that plan? Sounds interesting. I’d like to hear more
Because putting random people together, even if they claim to want to learn sorcery, will ALWAYS fail.
Sorcery can only be learned by a method used in the past.
So among the old seers, there were no "volunteers" learning. The old seers were children given to a previous old seer at an extremely young age, just like "younglings" in Star Wars.
They grew up being entirely dominated by an old seer. the one our lineage ran into as "the death defier" who had escaped the IOB realm after 7000 years there, was in fact a child given to an old seer, who gave him to the inorganic beings, against his will.
So among the old seers, people didn't just decide "Hey, that stuff looks cool! I want to learn."
The reason will become obvious to you, if you stick around in here and see how low the success rate is.
And if you consider that in 52 years, Carlos NEVER taught a single person.
And told us so just weeks before he died.
Not a single person out of the tens of thousands who seemed eager, was willing to do any actual work to learn. They all just wanted to pretend.
The new seers relied on "the nagual's blow".
And taught people "selected by the spirit", on the sly. While they didn't know they'd be pushed into heightened awareness, and couldn't recall that on returning.
But we don't have any double beings. Carlos verified that towards the end. The only one he found was Tony Karam, who wanted to go suck up to the big fraud Dali Lama, to get more fame and attention for himself.
So we have no one who can force others to learn sorcery and have to rely on mass numbers of people, which is only possible because of the rise of the internet.
Back then, I hadn't realized you can't get people to practice and thought I could gather some strays, give them a place to live,. and save this knowledge by that method.
I slowly learned that's impossible.
Carlos did too.
But we seem to have solved that problem now.
Or at least, we've gotten dozens to the red zone.
Whether they keep practicing from there is none of our business.
Of course, the real goal is the purple zone on the J curve map Carlos gave us.
He set that goal for us.
But, I wouldn't mind seeing someone design some "practical magic".
That's best done in the deep red zone.
I was going to post about "Rug magic" today in honor of Cholita's new rug hobby.
But there was enough stuff to post already (see Instagram and Facebook), so I saved myself the time.
Here's what that would have looked like. I took it from my own deep red zone ("the shift below") experiences with the Allies.
As much as you may hate to go this direction…you may have to start a kickstarter, or crowd fund a sorcery institute.
Unless your a brilliant Tony start realistate tycoon that can manage buisness projects on the side in order to fund your real sorcery interests you may have to find another means of attaining the resources to keep this knowledge alive.
I'm just hoping for a rise in numbers, where it becomes easier to learn.
But also, we have mods who have put a lot of effort into making sure the information gathered in here, is available in another 100 years.
After that, we'll all be Borg...
I should have added, an "institute" would fail to teach even a single person.
So it would essentially be a bad place, robbing people the way Monroe Institute does.
Stick around in here longer. So you can see why such a thing would inevitably fail.
Yeah…actually why I posted. Planning a trip soon. Mardi Gras. I’ve been digging into the mound builder world which is in my geographical area. Louisiana has the oldest sites which usually surprises people. Definitely possible connections with Mexico. Having conversations with AI about such matters. Working on a post about that. Yes, definitely have to
Go there.
Mankind was here on the Americas at least 30,000 years ago, and North America has its share.
Plus there's a bit of evidence for Neanderthals somewhere near where you're headed.
Yea there are some ancient mounds in Louisiana that are said to house giant remains