I remember reading the passages where don Juan talked about Silvio Manuel as if he was something almost impossible to classify, not just a man with unusual seeing, but someone who had gone very far into the realm of inorganic beings and come back altered by it. I also remember don Juan describing him as being one with intent, or at least so aligned with it that the distinction almost stopped mattering.
The reason I bring that up is because I had an experience a while back that made me think of him very strongly, and I still don’t fully know what to make of it.
During practice I asked a new ally to take me to the world of inorganic beings, or to what people here sometimes call the tunnels. Almost immediately there was a very strong energetic sound, and then I was moving through what looked like geometric hexagonal tunnels. It’s hard to describe properly. It was like a tunnel made of color and structure at the same time, the walls composed of hexagonal plates, but with that impossible quality these things sometimes have where they seem finite and infinite at once.
Then things shifted. The voice of seeing started communicating with me, and I found myself perceiving what looked like a palace, or maybe a gate, or some kind of threshold structure. Technically I was still in my room, but the perception overlaid the room and extended far beyond it. That part is unusual for me. Most of what I see tends to come in miniature, symbolic, or abstract form. This did not feel miniature at all. It felt vast, like the space around me had opened into something with no clear boundary.
At some point I saw a slender shadow figure, and the voice of seeing told me it was Silvio Manuel.
That’s where it gets strange, because my immediate reaction was not really belief, but confusion. It did not feel like I was simply “seeing Silvio Manuel” the way you would see a person standing in front of you. It felt more symbolic than literal, but not symbolic in the weak sense either. More like I was being shown a configuration, a presence, or a relation, and the label “Silvio Manuel” was the closest translation my awareness could produce.
I stared at that figure for what felt like one very dense second, but it had that peculiar quality some experiences have where you know more happened than you can account for. Almost like there was a gap inserted into perception itself. A missing span. As if an enormous amount of time, or content, had been removed, and what remained was just the after-image of contact.
So what I’m trying to sort out is this:
When something like this happens, are we actually talking about encountering a specific being in any ordinary sense, or are we dealing with an overlap of emanations where a particular figure, in this case Silvio Manuel, is the form through which something much larger becomes perceptible?
Because what I perceived did not feel like “a dead sorcerer hanging around in the inorganic realm” in any simplistic sense. It felt more like an omnipresent force or intelligence taking on a recognizable mask, or maybe using that configuration because it was the nearest thing I could understand.
So I’m curious how others here would parse this.
Do you think Silvio Manuel can still be encountered as an actual individual awareness within that realm, if that’s even the right way to phrase it? Or is “seeing Silvio Manuel” more likely to be contact with a zone, current, or field of intent associated with him, rather than with the person in the ordinary sense?
I’m not looking for armchair psychology answers here. I’m asking within the framework itself, for people who have actually dealt with allies, tunnels, overlays, missing time, or those moments where seeing gives you a name but the thing behind the name feels much bigger than the label.
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I’ve seen orange and blue hexagonal “tubes/tunnels” from Birds Eye view in DR a couple times. For some reason, I think it’s a shape others have mentioned in previous posts?
That sense of space, of dimensional depth of the immensity, is staggering.
Your session sounds awesome…
The tunnels are just where the awareness travels, by expirienece, I can say that when I go through them, that they are connected to a sense that your attention is alert on. They have taking me to different places and configurations of "me" different realities with different qualities and laws (as physical laws of our plane).
Twice Ive felt a sensation of breaking out of my body and appear in a ultra real version of my room, phisical sensation even, getting there through expiriecing static, waves of energy and loud internal noise, but also I've traveled through other senses as a the physical sensation of the body or sight (gazing). In my case I feel like being squeezed-pulled through a vacuum and appearing somewhere else. It's so fast I can't see the tunnel I just feel the transition like if I turned into some other material, I think is because I get hooked by an inorganic somewhere else that's why is so fast. Might be wrong though. Don't know for sure.
My interactions with inorganics have been nice and not very nice, inorganics seem to have the hability to play with our wants, needs, hopes, fears, illusions, stuff from the tonal, they use that information ,stuff that you still carry softly with in your self (even if you have recapitulated vastly) and they use that for their favor or not. They can play you in ways that your search of meaning or self grandiosity can be hooked easily I've felt in this myself. In very subtle ways..
Again I've had both, but your interaction sounds more like the one Carlos had with the inquilino from the Art of dreaming...
Is very possible the inorganic found the Silvio-Manuel-shaped (what he means to you) in you and filled it. To hook you more time, to keep you around...
That's why a complete lack of interest might be important, or sobriety to don't fall in traps or deals you are not fully aware off.
But better wait for a response from Dan, Thechno, Athena. But I would say sobriety is 🗝️
This is one of the experiences that mark great progress and bring awe and confusion at the same time. The Sorcerers of Don Juan's group, and maybe the previous ones, have become in a way a special kind of inorganic beings. We know from Carlos and the witches that the group of Don Juan is in the inorganic beings' realm.
Yes, because that's your way to translate the data this being was transmitting to you. The perception of "an old sorcerer hanging around in the inorganic beings' realm" is just a human mental impression we have about something that is beyond our mental capacity.
To answer more directly on the question of individual awareness versus field of intent — I don't think there is individual awareness in the way we understand it as humans, precisely because this being is no longer human. There is no guarantee that two people would perceive the same "configuration" of that entity. There is actually a reference worth mentioning here. In the book "I was Carlos Castaneda," the author encounters Carlos after his death in this world. The only human thing about him is his appearance. Everything else, his behavior, his manner of existing, has that alien, otherworldly quality that is beyond anything human. Which supports the point — the human mask may remain as the nearest translatable form, but what is behind it is something else entirely. You encountered that being in its own realm, so there was no need for human masks. Just experiencing this being in their domain. How it felt and the impressions it gave you are the way you can translate the data you received.
Regarding the gap and the missing time, I think what you're describing is essentially the space between perception and translation. We receive data through our perceptual filters at a specific position of the assemblage point, and how much of it actually gets translated depends heavily on those filters and, in don Juan's terms, on whether you have the energy to perceive it. Carlos himself had many such gaps in his experiences with the second attention, and don Juan explained that those missing spans weren't lost — they were stored at that specific assemblage point position and can be retrieved. There's also a possibility your assemblage point moved very far, contributing to that result.
You'll have to integrate the experience and accumulate more experience in this realm to make further observations and conclusions.
Which brings me to an observation about your experience. From your descriptions, I get the sense that you didn't have any type of volition to speak and interact with the being or the environment there. If that's the case, please intend for it — it's important for your future explorations of the second attention.
To emphasize your comment, this is a quote from The Teachings of Don Juan, specifically from the later appended section “Author’s Commentaries on the Occasion of the Thirtieth Year of Publication,” where Carlos is no longer narrating experiences but trying to explain the system as a whole in energetic terms:
“The exercise of all the units of the sorcerers' cognition allowed don Juan and all the shamans of his lineage to arrive at odd energetic conclusions which at first sight appear to be pertinent only to them and their personal circumstances, but which, if they are examined with care, may be applicable to any one of us. According to don Juan, the culmination of the shamans' quest is something he considered to be the ultimate energetic fact, not only for sorcerers, but for every human being on Earth. He called it the definitive journey.
The definitive journey is the possibility that individual awareness, enhanced to the limit by the individual's adherence to the shamans' cognition, could be maintained beyond the point at which the organism is capable of functioning as a cohesive unit, that is to say, beyond death. This transcendental awareness was understood by the shamans of ancient Mexico as the possibility for the awareness of human beings to go beyond everything that is known, and arrive, in this manner, at the level of energy that flows in the universe. Shamans like don Juan Matus defined their quest as the quest of becoming, in the end, an inorganic being, meaning energy aware of itself, acting as a cohesive unit, but without an organism. They called this aspect of their cognition total freedom, a state in which awareness exists, free from the impositions of socialization and syntax.”
I believe you're mixing up stories, but if you know where it says Silvio went too far into the inorganic being's realm, I'd love to see it.
What made Silvio different was that once Julian gave him the Nagual's blow, his assemblage point never returned to his old shape and he remained in heightened awareness permanently.
Something a real sorcerer does eventually, but not starting as an apprentice.
As you may recall, there was a point later on in the books where Carlos finally moved his assemblage point on demand, on his own. In that cave. Took him what might have been hours, but that's normal. It takes me 3 hours some nights to move all the way to silent knowledge.
You can learn to move it there too, with darkroom. It feels much better than "me, me, me", so that eventually you realize you can get rid of that grief, by stopping your internal dialogue, and looking into the second attention to make it get stronger.
Until you are face to face with the Nagual. It's actually a concrete thing you can gaze it, although it doesn't assemble into anything in particular unless you make an attempt to do that.
Someone asked if they had to stop using drugs, and I advised them to start practicing right away, and worry about stuff like that later.
What happens is that being high becomes painful compared to moving your assemblage point far enough to eliminate "me".
And the variety of "highs" available by moving your assemblage point, is easily 1000 times more than all known drugs.
The "center" of those possibilities is heightened awareness, AKA the orange zone.
Which is where the Nagual's blow put Silvio's assemblage point.
I really doubt he's available in the inorganic being's realm.
But the entities there will be happy to pretend to be him, for a while. But only a time or two. They can't keep a specific concrete form long, mostly because you're the one generating that.
If you really want to meet a steady and reliable "Silvio", use silent knowledge to make an entity like Porfirio from the books.
The Mazatec healer who taught Nestor about plants.
Nestor went back to learn from him, over and over.
Even though, that being didn't actually exist in human form. Unless he was drawn from the past.
I can't stabilize them, but I manufacture at least one of those Silent Knowledge Entities nightly because it's a good test of whether Silent Knowledge has begun to flow.
I sure hope you aren't trying to learn sorcery, using sleeping dreams.
Sometimes people casually say "I was practicing", but their results are very much like a sleeping dream in terms of ease and concreteness.
Sleeping dreams are an unpleasant dead end for men.
Not that you don't have to go back later and explore that realm.
But for beginners, you can't practice more often than once a month if you try to use sleeping dreams. Because you won't wake up enough to find your hands and bring some rationality in there.
This isn't a binary system where one or two cool experiences have any actually effect on learning sorcery.
You need to do stuff THOUSANDS of time.
Thus, you need to be able to practice daily.
who would give us a nagual’s blow if we’re on our own?
No one. We're screwed.
It's possible that for most of us, our only hope is energetic momentum.
Thus Jadey's efforts.
On the other hand, we're having experiences in here that exceed what anyone in the lineages experienced for the first 10 years of their apprenticeship, if you ignore their learning under the influence of the Nagual's blow.
Meaning, for the timeline they could remember those first 10 years, we're doing vastly more real magic than they were capable of.
There's magazine interviews with Carlos which took place early on after don Juan had left, and Carlos complained that he couldn't get anything to happen on his own.
So we're getting far along.
However, there's a real issue trying to be "impeccable", with no actual lineage or old seer group to hang out with.
Crappy normal life tries to pull you back, and is likely to win in most cases.
Because there's nothing at the social level, to motivate you to keep working as hard as you have to, to make progress.
Progress comes from pushing, not from practicing.
At first you have to push even to get yourself to practice at all.
So it works!
But later practicing requires no pushing because you immediately get magical results.
The problem then is, you've found a new assemblage point position.
But it's not far enough along to save you from permanent death. And if you stop at the point where you have just barely learned to move your assemblage point to the other side, it'll simply become part of your daily life, and slowly decay back to almost insignificant.
The only thing we might have to take us "over the line" to permanent silent knowledge, could be group energetic mass.
“group energetic mass”. So eventually, we have to form community and come together physically.
I was hoping we could manage to teleport, to accomplish this part.
The lineages did that. In fact, it's possible that most of their interactions were in their double.
Genaro had a house way, way, way far away. Someone found out the location and we posted a picture of the desolate mountain it's located on.
Did he actually come down to the lineage's houses, which were located very far apart?
I know it's far, because Cholita actually had to take a bus to get from where she was, which is closer to Genaro's home, to Mexico city.
Apparently it was a long drive!
So possibly, Genaro never stopped living in his mountain top home.
Despite interacting daily at don Juan's house near Mexico City, or Zuleica's compound not far from Vicam up north.
Do we know anyone that can do that now?
Not so far, but that doesn't mean someone can't.
If you can do things like that, you COMPLETELY got over trying to seek attention from others.
As Carlos said, "No real witch is interested in proving anything, to anyone."
But Cholita can certainly do things just as "impossible".
But won't, unless you get her a bit angry and a bit drunk.
Florinda put the fear of God into her, over showing magic to others.
Who is Cholita ? thank you
There are just 3 active private students of Carlos left.
The other either quit and cursed Carlos, or joined one of the left over Cleargreen versions, so that they could steal money based on pretending.
Ignoring that Carlos told them explicitly that cleargreen would go bad in less than 10 years.
Took them less than 2.
It's sad, but out of 50 private students Carlos put so much time into (100 total if you count occasional visitors), only 3 remain.
Cholita is one of them.
Carlos imported her from Mexico after hearing she got lost during a peyote ceremony in the mountains, and had to be rescued.
He pretty much took over her life, even providing her places to work, and customers from among his mysterious friends.
She's the most powerful among us, but the least likely to interact with anyone else.
She went completely mad, so I'm protecting her.
She leaves spells all around the house and yard, so I get to see how she does what she can do.
Which includes feats of sorcery beyond what anyone is willing to believe.
There's a section in the wiki on Cholita.
The other private student left is Jadey, who teaches REAL tensegrity. And is the most famous private student of all, since pictures of her talking to Carlos outside Dance home, are available on the internet. From our scientology spy Greg.
Jadey is over here if the link remains:
https://www.youtube.com/@sorcerypasses
Notice how she has to call it "sorcery passes" for fear Cleargreen will sue to stop her.
As they've been doing to anything copyrighted which people share on the net. They've been getting it all taken down, to maximize their profit.
Even, it seems, attacking our mod Techno. Who was successfully removed from reddit for reasons reddit hasn't explained so far.
Cleargreen no longer teaches the real thing. It's just what they made up, thinking they could increase workshop sizes with cool sounding pretend stuff. Taking a topic from the books, and pretending they now have a magical pass for that.
And they forgot how to do the 400 or so Tensegrity moves Carlos gave us. Two hundred, at least, now lost.
But they don't care. They pretend they can do them anyway, and take people's money for harming them with fake stuff.
Most likely also is that Reni is old and feeble and the whole thing was taken over by bad people who never even met Carlos. And don't care if it works or not as long as they can cash in.
None of us take money, including Jadey who organizes expensive to manage Argentinian workshops for free.
She probably should start charging enough so that she doesn't lose out of her own pocket.
Hello Dan. Thank you for your reply, I'm new to this forum, I started to read about Cholita, after you pointed out that there is a wiki. Thank you for that. It's a lot of information, new terminology and my head will need time to process it, sink it in. the link to sorcery passes by Jadey on YouTube works . Tony FL
Jadey used to have a saturday class, and I haven't heard that it stopped.
By video.
She's in Argentina, at least last time I checked. Hard to keep track of her . She was in a house along a road leading to a mountain, which I managed to travel to once or twice. But then she was in a houseboat.
That might be trick to travel to in waking dreaming... Do you get to walk on water, or will you fall right in?
I'll let someone else figure that out.
Cleargreen might have classes, but they wouldn't be doing real tensegrity for some of it, and you'd have to pretend that was ok.
Thank you. I haven't experienced Dreaming as going/being at predetermined location after falling asleep, (if I correctly understood what you mean by "waking dreaming" ?)
It's a pity reddit doesn't show me the context of this. So I can see what you said about how much you know.
But no, waking dreaming is dreaming done fully awake.
There's no sleeping and no laying down involved.
At it's best, the physical room you practice in goes away and you can walk freely in other realms of reality, as if there were no walls to avoid. Swipe away the ceiling of your room, and leap through outer space, in your physical body.
It's real magic!!!
I sure hope you read all of the books! There's nothing new here.
In Second Ring of Power (or Eagle's Gift"), the little sisters run on the walls for Carlos. No one goes to sleep.
La Gorda opens a "sliding door" portal so they can escape the allies.
Later she takes Carlos flying using that "grab the red lines" technique.
MOST of the magic in the books, is done fully awake.
If you do your magic asleep, the results aren't going to be any better than the pretend Asian systems out there. Which do it in some form of meditation, meaning, they doze off and make up stuff.
The way "Astral Travel" fools people into thinking that's not just sleeping dreams triggered by obsessions over a false narrative created by greedy people (Monroe Institute).
Pretty much every other system out there follows that Monroe institute model of creating a false narrative, and then using closed eye meditation techniques to give people permission to delude themselves by misrepresenting sleeping dreams, as magic.
Awake... Or you'll never get anywhere real.
I did read all the books. I actually read them in cycle/cycles as it deepens my understanding keeps me on this sorcery topic. La Gorda learned her flying in Dreaming and then somehow was able to replicate what she did in Dreaming on "physical plane". I'm at a point of "looking for my hands in my dreams" with periodic success. i see that on Darkroom Practice is marked as (waking dreaming), so I will start by reading up on Darkroom Practice, which is what is going to lead me to waking dreaming , I suppose. Is that correct? Thank you
Yes. Tensegrity produces waking dreaming, especially when done in full darkness.
But you ALWAYS have to be trying as hard as you can, to stop your internal dialogue.
Carlos was frustrated in private classes because no one was actually doing that.
At first he taught individual movements because there's more like what the lineages practiced.
But then when that didn't work he told us that he had created "long forms" so that we'd focus on muscle memory, instead of running our internal dialogue unchecked.
Didn't work...
fortunately before he died, he introduced one private class to his 2 allies, and they followed me home.
Eventually creating "dark room practice".
Which is nothing new. Even Cleargreen started turning the lights down after Carlos was gone.
The tensegrity itself shows what you can see if you silence your internal dialogue. It's directly designed to manipulate "puffs" of the energy body. I added the puffs, but if you learn to do this, it's far more wonderful than this shows.
As far as finding your hands, people tried that for 55 years and not a single one of them learned enough sorcery to be of any significance.
It's an advanced practice, not a path for beginners.
Art of Dreaming onliy works if you have a Nagual using the Nagual's blow to move your assemblage point all over th eplace, and also only if you worked hard to learn to stop your internal dialogue.
That's clear, but people ignore the obvious so t hey can pretend to be practicing, when they go to bed.
As I said, it didn't work even a single time, in the 55 years after Carlos explained it in his early books.
If that seems wrong, point to who you believe learned that way.
In the last 7 years, no one has been able to point to any real magic out there on the net. It's always the same old pretending.
Except in our social media, where there's pictures right there, to show what you can learn to do.
Here's everything up to the "second gate" of sleeping dreaming, but done awake.
thank you so much, thanks to you I became aware of this technique that I can try.. I did go to Darkroom Practice. and its a lot there. got myself confused. I might have to look at it later with fresh eyes. Can you please point me to one or several links from there for very beginner that I can try right away ? I'm not clear which Tensegrity( I have a book magical passes) I do, which series, so I get a chance to see result?
should I just follow the one below to start ?
How to see energy in 3 weeks
Or follow this part of the video, which shows the kinds of sights you can expect.
I had to point to that point in the video.
As to which passes, look them over and make a pick.
But you do need the "lifesaver" warm up, and I highly recommend the technique for shapeshifting into a tree, or stretching yourself to an infinite line to communicate with stars, or to live 400 years of you remain stretched.
Stellar Hatch.
Here's what you can end up seeing if your learn to stop your internal dialogue during Tensegrity:
Here's Stellar Hatch being used by a witch:
**
Dan, Thank you for your help. I printed 6-7 articles(links) from this forum (some going as far as 8 yrs ago). I'm reading them with pencil. and learning from your posts . It's not exaggeration to say that the information presented makes me as excited as when a book by Carlos Castaneda came to me for the first time in June 2023. Your posts are clearly an expansion and evolution of this Knowledge. Although I discovered about forum just this month ago it makes me very happy that luckily it happened, as I like to learn. The windows in the walk-in large closet adjacent to my master bedroom have been covered and tonight will be the 3rd time I'll dive into darkness of it. ideally I'll doing from 3-6 am nightly in it. Since it is some time and my current library of magical passes (from memory without reference to a book) is equal to what I was reading about "lifesaver pass" I will run out of things todo there, so I will do what did yesterday which is recapitulation in total darkness. A cup of Jasmine tea from Fuji Province really worked nicely to be totally awake for the previous two sessions. and then over next month I will come back here ideally daily to search for more magical passes to add to my library of maneuvers in the dark room. That's my current understanding and plan. Thank you for reading. --Tony FL
The only thing that matters is that you work daily and don't stop. And NEVER FORGET it's 99% about stopping your internal dialogue.
So it's impossible not to make progress. At the very least, you'll get better and better at stopping your internal dialogue.
Just don't fool yourself the way m editation people do, and think you stopped it when clearly you didn't.
I've never understood why they believe that. But my experience is that you can't get them to talk honestly about things.
Because they'[re pretending their results, and don't realize we absolutely don't do any pretending in sorcery.
Here's what I was trying to understand last night. Why 2 "walls" keep following me around during practice. I concluded that whatever it was, it was useful. It's "physical matter and space" second attention manifestations.
By the way, sleeping dreaming is a practice that's suitable for women, because they have a womb.
Men don't.
It activates the "second brain".
But they still have to bring it into the waking world before it's obviously very cool.
But the men have more energetic "mass" at some level, so having to do all the work awake, isn't a huge burden on them.
As always, the burden is actually practicing for real, daily, with emphasis on stopping the internal dialogue.
There's no way out of the hard work, because this magic is the real thing.