It's like the first attention is living at the expense of second attention so they are at conflict with each other.
Don Juan described first attention to an island and second attention to the water surrounding it.
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u/syncmaster753
2 points2020-06-07 07:49
The gateway to the third attention which is our real self is by merging the first and second attention.
The reason to merge these two and making it a single entity is because they are naturally in conflict and repel each other.
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u/Puzzlehead-
3 points2020-06-07 08:02
Hmm i think i see what you mean. I wonder about transforming into an animal though, isnt that also focusing the second attention into the first? Ive always had hopes i could heal and transform my physical body and face through dreaming as im disfigured and ugly. However maybe its different because im only focusing on myself. I read in one of those books how the energy of a luminous being can be transformed, through will, into anything. I guess thats a different and non evil thing? hmm
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u/danl999
3 points2020-06-09 17:37
I believe you're mixing information someone else came up with, which is not part of Castaneda's books.
Not sure though. Could you please show me where you got this information?
As I recall, the third attention is reached by moving the assemblage point rapidly across the entire band of man, to light up all the emanations at once.
And you die as a result.
You arrive at it naturally, by moving the assemblage point daily, across that "J" curve I posted about.
The first attention is at the top of the J, the second attention at any position a few inches down, along the 4 foot path.
It has very little to do with what you said, from what I've read. But I'm banned from reading the books anymore. Cholita loves to tempt me though. She has one of Carlos' books in every place you might walk by, in our home. Just sitting there.
Maybe you picked up a "me-too nagual" piece of information, like from Armando, Miguel, or Vicente?
People tend to obsess on the "cooler" things in the books.
They don' t do the work to actually learn anything, but instead become "Castaneda experts". I supposed that's all they wanted.
The third attention is often a fantasy among them, just because it sounds like they're really far long if they know anything about it.
But in fact, the real thing is a lot cooler than just talking about it!
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u/jd198703
1 points2020-06-10 21:32
And you die as a result.
Dan, could you elaborate please?
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u/danl999
3 points2020-06-10 23:12
I've read this in the books, but Carlos also mentioned it in class more than once.
From my own experience, if you scoop colors in darkness, you learn to move your assemblage point.
At first, you only notice that cool stuff happens, and you get tingly feelings.
But eventually you actually feel it move, and learn how to move it.
You can't always do it, but even a single breath can move it very far, when done in perfect silence.
The silence lets it move, the breath is enough of a push on the shoulder to displace it.
And no wonder Tensegrity works, when silent! Once it's loose from silence, ANY movement can make it shift.
Thus the failure of workshops is obviously, no one took the time to learn to get fully silent. Carlos didn't have enough time to push that goal. He probably figured people were actually practicing silence on their own, but he was wrong.
Silence = visible magic. Since we hear of none, they didn't learn silence! Or they're keeping their mouths shut for unknown reasons.
The path it shifts along is that J curve Carlos traced on a woman in class.
Of course, when struck on the shoulder, it goes straight through the ball of cheese. But it seems that when you move it yourself, it takes that J curve path.
I supposed, when you get very good at moving it, as a result of doing it daily, you learn to move it so rapidly that the emanations lit up in that path, don't have time to cool off.
I suppose we could conclude from this that the glowing emanations have some "persistance", meaning, they don't light up or go off instantly.
Maybe they're like a nail you heat up to yellow hot with a torch, then take the torch away. On it's own, it cools fairly slowly.
It'll still be glowing some color for a few seconds.
I suppose, if you moved your assemblage point rapidly across the entire curve, you could light up more than is normally lit up.
You'd be aware of all of man's band at once.
And, you "burn with the fire from within".
It means death. I suspect the body remains behind.
It could be, any cyclic being we can inhabit picks up physical matter from their world. And it's independent of our awareness.
Carlos' books say a few things about the third attention which let new people speculate, but they inevitably misunderstand it.
It says something like, "on the outskirts of the third attention".
That could simply mean, you're very good at moving your assemblage point, and can play with lighting up more than usual.
But that probably wouldn't feel like you're standing there tingling all over.
It would likely feel like you were existing in multiple worlds at once.
But who knows. We all have a lot more work to do, to understand it.
Edited once
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u/jd198703
1 points2020-06-11 09:51
I've read this in the books, but Carlos also mentioned it in class more than once.
In the books it is told that it is an ultimate death defiance, like all the being becomes pure awareness, "shoes and all" as Carlos told.. Meaning unlimited awareness instead of a cocoon capable or traveling maneuvers incomprehensible. Interestingly, in latest book it is mentioned such being is alive until the Earth itself is. So it is not immortality. But maybe Carlos just used shoes and all to encourage and motivate people? It is very very speculative, but the closest I can think of is a Dzogchen, with their rainbow body as an ultimate liberation. It is described in a very similar fashion speaking about a complete, bodily transformation into light. But as you have very well noted, we are vastly far from this achievement, so this kind of speculation is just what it is - a purest speculation..
I asked because I was surprised you mentioned it as death.
Some quote (not for an " nagualism expert" thing as I am not, but just for your comment):
"Don Juan and Genaro came to my side and looked at me with an expression of surprise.
"What are we really doing, don Juan?" I asked. "Is it possible that warriors are only preparing
themselves for death?"
"No way," he said, gently patting my shoulder. "Warriors prepare themselves to be aware, and
full awareness comes to them only when there is no more self-importance left in them. Only
when they are nothing do they become everything."
We were quiet for a moment."
"The fact that such a maneuver is possible, he said, is something of the most singular
importance to seers, old and new alike, but for reasons diametrically opposed. Knowing about it
allowed the old seers to move their assemblage point to inconceivable dreaming positions in the
incommensurable unknown; for the new seers it means refusing to be food, it means escaping the
Eagle by moving their assemblage points to a particular dreaming position called total freedom.
He explained that the old seers discovered that it is possible to move the assemblage point to
the limit of the known and keep it fixed there in a state of prime heightened awareness. From that
position, they saw the feasibility of slowly shifting their assemblage points permanently to other
positions beyond that limit - a stupendous feat fraught with daring but lacking sobriety, for they
could never retract the movement of their assemblage points, or perhaps they never wanted to.
Don Juan said that adventurous men, faced with the choice of dying in the world of ordinary
affairs or dying in unknown worlds, will unavoidably choose the latter, and that the new seers,
realizing that their predecessors had chosen merely to change the locale of their death, came to
understand the futility of it all; the futility of struggling to control their fellow men, the futility of
assembling other worlds, and, above all, the futility of self-importance.
One of the most fortunate decisions that the new seers made, he said, was never to allow their
assemblage points to move permanently to any position other than heightened awareness. From
that position, they actually resolved their dilemma of futility and found out that the solution is not
simply to choose an alternate world in which to die, but to choose total consciousness, total
freedom.
Don Juan commented that by choosing total freedom, the new seers unwittingly continued in
the tradition of their predecessors and became the quintessence of the death defiers.
He explained that the new seers discovered that if the assemblage point is made to shift
constantly to the confines of the unknown, but is made to return to a position at the limit of the
known, then when it is suddenly released it moves like lightning across the entire cocoon of man,
aligning all the emanations inside the cocoon at once.
"The new seers burn with the force of alignment," don Juan went on, "with the force of will,
which they have turned into the force of intent through a life of impeccability. Intent is the alignment of all the amber emanations of awareness, so it is correct to say that total freedom
means total awareness."
Thus the failure of workshops is obviously, no one took the time to learn to get fully silent. Carlos didn't have enough time to push that goal. He probably figured people were actually practicing silence on their own, but he was wrong.
Maybe he was hoping Tensegrity would help to attain it?
It could be, any cyclic being we can inhabit picks up physical matter from their world. And it's independent of our awareness.
This is a curious point. So when you enter these worlds, you kind of become some other being inhabiting it? It is strange that this topic really came up later on, just some mentionings here and there by Carlos and the Witches. And during the private classes. In the books it was not mentioned explicitly that you become some other being when entering other worlds, like you are still yourself, either in dreaming or the physical body. Maybe Carlos had his reasons not to put this into books, or put in very vague manner. Maybe there are different kinds of entrances? Or you always "inhabit" some parallel being?
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u/danl999
3 points2020-06-11 16:34
if the assemblage point is made to shift constantly to the confines of the unknown, but is made to return to a position at the limit of the known,
That's why it's necessarily to daily move it. And while doing that, you do indeed discover it could be made to move very fast.
So the entrance to the third attention isn't a mystery at all. If you play with the second attention everyday, so that your assemblage point is moving all over the place, you eventually notice you can make it shift on demand, and it slides easily now.
Maybe he was hoping Tensegrity would help to attain it?
He might have been deliberately slowing people down, the way Buddhists tell students to ignore the visions.
And he'd planned to get them in better shape psychologically and physically before introducing real magic.
He gave up on that at the end, teaching us "the wall", and how to manifest things by compressing chi balls.
He just ran out of time. I'm sure what he had planned would have worked, if he'd had another 5 years.
Or you always "inhabit" some parallel being?
No, not always. The world could be virtual, built only from your own intent (like a dream but more stable).
And there are shared dreaming worlds.
It's probably a bit mushy. Half and half at times, 100% cyclic being at others.
You come with their memories once you switch.
The blue scout is curious in this regard.
She's supposedly Patty Parton, but Patty Parton had a life before Carlos.
On the other hand, Carlos tried to weave everyone into the intent of sorcery, which is mandatory to get a boost.
Everything I've learned came in little "gifts" from intent along the years. I did something more advanced than I'm capable of, and then the next time could not.
But they kept me trying hard, which resulted in something else.
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u/jd198703
1 points2020-06-11 17:52
That's why it's necessarily to daily move it. And while doing that, you do indeed discover it could be made to move very fast.
This seems relevant:
"The greatest difference between an average man and a sorcerer is that a sorcerer commands
his death with his speed," don Juan went on. "If it comes to that, the jaguar will not eat me. He'll
eat you, because you don't have the speed to hold back your death."
He then elaborated on the intricacies of the sorcerers' idea of speed and death. He said that in
the world of everyday life our word or our decisions could be reversed very easily. The only
irrevocable thing in our world was death. In the sorcerers' world, on the other hand, normal death
could be countermanded, but not the sorcerers' word. In the sorcerers' world decisions could not
be changed or revised. Once they had been made, they stood forever.
I told him his statements, impressive as they were, could not convince me that death could be
revoked. And he explained once more what he had explained before. He said that for a seer
human beings were either oblong or spherical luminous masses of countless, static, yet vibrant
fields of energy, and that only sorcerers were capable of injecting movement into those spheres of
static luminosity. In a millisecond they could move their assemblage points to any place in their
luminous mass. That movement and the speed with which it was performed entailed an
instantaneous shift into the perception of another totally different universe. Or they could move
their assemblage points, without stopping, across their entire fields of luminous energy. The force
created by such movement was so intense that it instantly consumed their whole luminous mass.
He said that if a rockslide were to come crashing down on us at that precise moment, he would
be able to cancel the normal effect of an accidental death. By using the speed with which his
assemblage point would move, he could make himself change universes or make himself burn
from within in a fraction of a second. I, on the other hand, would die a normal death, crushed by
the rocks, because my assemblage point lacked the speed to pull me out."
And he'd planned to get them in better shape psychologically and physically before introducing real magic.
Yes, Carlos mentioned it in the passes book.
No, not always. The world could be virtual, built only from your own intent (like a dream but more stable).
And there are shared dreaming worlds.
It's probably a bit mushy. Half and half at times, 100% cyclic being at others.
But if it is not virtual, then you always inhabit the parallel being, at least at 50%, like you are no longer you? A post on this topic of types of worlds would be great, but it could drive more inventory for some as well..
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u/danl999
2 points2020-06-11 18:15
I'd rather not describe specific worlds. That way, if someone finds one we can compare notes without my having influenced anyone.
But there is one I'll mention, just to give an example.
There is a little European chateau in the mountains, plagued by a fierce black beast which roams the roads looking for food.
The locals tolerate it because it's very intelligent.
But it can still kill people on occasion.
I got the impression it was so intelligent, it would have to have a grudge against you for something you did, before it would harm you. And you always have the option to just hide and stay out of its way.
Some of the locals like to follow it along the road above the main road, so they can watch it roam.
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u/jd198703
1 points2020-06-11 18:18
I'd rather not describe specific worlds. That way, if someone finds one, we can compare notes without my having influenced anyone.
Agree 100%. I was talking about "types" of world in an abstract manner and whether you enter as yourself or someone else in regards to them. Certainly not about the specific ones. But thanks for the description! :-)
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u/danl999
3 points2020-06-11 18:30
Yes, you are someone else. But it probably won't occur to you.
You pick up the memories of whoever you become. But, you're still a little unsure of things.
The locals seem to go along with you, as if nothing were odd.
By the way, that quote you had about assembling another world to escape a rock slide, seems to add weight to the idea that you can in fact teleport.
I haven't seen evidence of it yet, but it's nice to know it's possible.
In that case, you have to take your physical matter along. That's the part I can't figure out.
If you can take your physical matter out of the way of a rock slide, how come you have to take over someone else in another world?
And how come the allies can kidnap you in 2 stages?
Once in your second attention body, probably simply keeping your dreaming body from wandering around the way it normally does, while your waking body doesn't know any better.
It's always out there roaming around.
But then, a few of them can return and pull your physical matter along too, presumably leaving nothing behind.
Likely, both ways of traveling, in all physicality, or only in your double, are possible?
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u/jd198703
1 points2020-06-11 20:49
You pick up the memories of whoever you become. But, you're still a little unsure of things.
The locals seem to go along with you, as if nothing were odd.
I can understand that! A bit offtopic, but there was a man writing about out of body experiences - Robert Monroe with a book "Journeys out of body". He is unrelated to Castaneda, but most likely a natural dreamer. He has described some world where he was someone else, like a special out of body state different from the usual one. Just look at his description:
"Locale III, in summary, proved to be a physical-matter world almost identical to our own. The natural
environment is the same. There are trees, houses, cities, people, artifacts, and all the appurtenances of
a reasonably civilized society. There are homes, families, businesses, and people work for a living.
There are roads on which vehicles travel. There are railroads and trains.
Now for the “almost”. At first, the thought was that Locale III was no more than some part of our world
unknown to me and those others concerned. It had all the appearances of being so. However, more
careful study showed that it can be neither the present nor the past of our physical-matter world.
The scientific development is inconsistent. There are no electrical devices whatsoever. Electricity,
electromagnetics, and anything so related are non-existent. No electric lights, telephones, radios,
television, or electric power.
No internal combustion, gasoline, or oil were found as power sources. Yet mechanical power is used.
Careful examination of one of the locomotives that pulled a string of old-fashioned-looking passenger
cars showed it to be driven by a steam engine. The cars appeared to be made of wood, the locomotive
of metal, but of a different shape than our now obsolete types. The track gauge was much smaller than
our standard track spacing, smaller than our narrow-gauge mountain railways.
I observed the servicing of one of the locomotives in detail. Neither wood nor coal was used as a
thermal source to produce steam. Instead, large vatlike containers were carefully slid from under the
boiler, detached, and rolled by small cart into a building with massive thick walls. The containers had
pipelike protuberances extending from the top. Men working behind shields performed the removal,
casually cautious, and did not relax their automatic vigilance until the containers were safely in the
building and the door closed. The contents were “hot,” either through heat or radiation. The actions of
the technicians all seemed to indicate the latter.
The streets and roads are different, again principally in size. The “lane” on which vehicles travel is
nearly twice as wide as ours. Their version of our automobile is much larger. Even the smallest has a
single bench seat that will hold five to six people abreast. The standard unit has only one fixed seat,
that of the driver. Others are much like living-room chairs, placed around a compartment that
measures some fifteen by twenty feet. Wheels are used, but without inflated tyres. Steering is done by a
single horizontal bar. Motive power is contained somewhere in the rear. Their movement is not very
fast, at something like fifteen to twenty miles per hour. Traffic is not heavy.
Self-powered vehicles exist in the form of a four-wheeled platform which is steered by the feet acting
upon the front wheels. A mechanism pumped by the arms transfers the energy to the rear wheels,
much like the children's “rowing wagons” of some years back. These are used for short distances.
Habits and customs are not like ours. What little has been gleaned implies a historical background
with different events, names, places, and dates. Yet, while the stage of man's evolution (the conscious
mind translates the inhabitants as men) seems to be identical, technical and social evolution are not
completely the same.
The major discovery came soon after I gathered the courage for extended expeditions into Locale III. In
spite of early indications, the people there were not aware of my presence until I met and “merged”
temporarily and involuntarily with one who can only be described as the “I” who lives “there”. The only
explanation I can think of is that I, fully conscious of living and being “here,” was attracted to and
began momentarily to inhabit the body of a person “there,” much like myself.
When this took place—-and it began to be an automatic process when I went to Locale III—-I simply took
over “his” body. There was no awareness of his mental presence when I temporarily displaced him. My
knowledge of him and his activities and his past came from his family, and what was evidently his
brain memory-bank. Though I knew that I was not he, I could feel objectively the emotional patterns of
his past. I have wondered what embarrassment I have caused him as a result of the periods of
amnesia created by my intrusions. Some must have brought him much distress.
Here is his life: “I” There at the first intrusion, was a rather lonely man. He was not particularly
successful in his field (architect-contractor), and not too gregarious. He came of what might be
classified as a low-income group, and succeeded in going to the equivalent of a minor college. He
spent much of his early career in a large city in an ordinary job. He lived on the second floor of a
rooming house, and took a bus to work. It was a strange city to him, and he made few friends. (The
bus, incidentally, was very wide, seating eight abreast, and seats rose behind the driver in successively
higher tiers, so that all could see the road ahead.) My first intrusion caught him just as he was getting
off the bus. The driver looked at him suspiciously when I tried to pay a fare. It seems that none is
charged."
Interesting enough, yes? :-)
In that case, you have to take your physical matter along. That's the part I can't figure out.
If you can take your physical matter out of the way of a rock slide, how come you have to take over someone else in another world?
To be honest, this is the reason why I started the conversation with you on this topic. This is exactly the point which had crossed my mind. Which seems unresolvable logically.
Likely, both ways of traveling, in all physicality, or only in your double, are possible?
From Carlos' books, it seems to be so. Maybe there is something very special about the fact you enter dreaming awake? If I am not mistaking it, Carlos referred to this dreaming induced from silence as a very special way of doing it, different from the usual one.
By the way, Cleargreen is definitely aware of this topic. Renata has spoken on many occasions about dreaming other worlds with our paralel beings.
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u/danl999
4 points2020-06-11 21:15
However, more careful study showed that it can be neither the present nor the past of our physical-matter world.
Ah, someone who doesn't take the standard line, such as re-incarnation.
He actually determined if it would be the same world.
So understand this: Sorcery isn't really all that complicated.
It only seems that way because of Carlos' books, and the elaborate way don Juan taught him.
Unnecessarily over complicated.
But, it gave us a look at how the old sorcerers, and even modern shamans, do what they do.
They don't have a full understanding, just procedures which produce a result.
But the truth is, find any way to move the assemblage point, such as scooping colors, combine that with silence, and you'll go all the way.
It's not the techniques or results we're trying to learn.
We're not trying to repeat anything, in order to gain some advantage over our fellow men.
We just want to move that assemblage point, as far as possible, every single day.
That leads to the third attention.
Renata has spoken on many occasions about dreaming other worlds with our paralel beings.
Maybe cleargreen 1 and 2 weren't concerned with Carlos' reputation, so they've been doing everything eyes closed.
I want to PROVE his techniques, so I have to do it fully awake with eyes open, and with a partner (Cholita).
No one cares what you dream while sleeping. Or even if you claim to be dreaming while awake, but are sitting in a chair with eyes closed.
All the impressive stuff from the books takes place fully awake. That's what hooks people.
We need to do that, to overcome the "Inconsistencies in the Books", by Jeremy Donovan, types of nonsense out there.
Really Jeremy??? Too lazy to try it, so kill the teacher instead?
He spells Cholita's sponsor's name as "Margaret". So I guess that still isn't resolved.
This morning, I discovered a way to move my assemblage point by gazing directly at something only from the second attention.
Nothing else. I supposed that means, I found a use for an abstract dream.
After an hour moving my assemblage point back and forth, Cholita and Minx came into my room.
But Minx was pretending to be her child. I'm not sure Cholita realized what was going on, but she spoke to me.
That hasn't happened before.
Probably I slipped too far into sleeping dreaming.
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u/Happynewusername2020
4 points2020-06-07 08:10
The ancient sorcerers definitely used their attention to capture the energy of their fellow men, I’m sure some became kings.
Other kings tried to emulate those sorcerers but could never master the intent required to manipulate awareness.
Those men stole energy without the knowledge to effectively use it to beacon intent and in turn only inspired fear and eventually died probably horrific deaths.
I think I met one of those men once.
I can understand the desire for power ( super powers as Dan99 would put it )
The ability to use sorcery to gain wealth, fame, sex...
Unfortunately I also realize the deeper you dig into impeccability and dreaming and stalking the farther away those desires become. I have found that the more power I manage to store up that energy is quickly dissipated with mundane tasks of daily life.
The ability to manipulate others intent using your will must be enormous!
The ability to manipulate the world to rain down money upon you must be simply god like.
I know I work with the mentally ill and I wish I could just smack their assemblage points back into a regular position but I’m helpless.
I see their assemblage points mis aligned but I can’t move them.
I can however move mine, for me that’s worth all the money in the world because I know what my fate is.
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u/Puzzlehead-
2 points2020-06-07 09:18
Im starting to think i might have misunderstood this. Maybe a modern day person can focus thier dreaming onto money without necessarliy becoming a ghoul or hunter of men. Just not sure exactly how that works. Does it have to be specific like say i have a business selling Tacos so i go into dreaming and focus my Intent to sell a million Tacos and now suddenly im selling a million Tacos. Or could it be more general like I just focus in general I want a million dollars and BOOM the magic happens. No need for becoming a ghoul or hunter of men.
edit: in case youre wondering this whole concept is from the book The Eagles Gift, i didnt imagine it myself about this fixating of the second attention turning people into ghouls.
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u/Happynewusername2020
3 points2020-06-07 09:28
I’m under the impression that it works more like you close your eyes wishing you could become a millionaire selling tacos 🌮 yet what will happens is you burn yourself on the stove making tacos day after day until you take up fishing.
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u/syncmaster753
1 points2020-06-07 09:32
All things that can be described is first attention all that have a tag.
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u/oceanic_1986
1 points2020-06-07 12:33
I totally get the temptation. Money is a tool, almost analogous to power and freedom. We need money to make transactions for things we need and want.
But don’t mistake money for actual freedom or power. Remember La Gorda used to get fat off the food people handed to her for free. No money needed. There’s an element of personal power to that.
Developing personal power is more versatile and useful.
And the kind of spiritual freedom you get from this sort of practice is more vast and can take you further than any plane ticket you could buy with money.
If you focus strictly on money instead of the deeper, cooler stuff, you’re probably short changing yourself.
I don’t know about the scare tactics saying you’ll turn into a ghoul or hunter of men... but those people turn into that somehow, so perhaps it’s a valid warning?
Now it sounds like your real question was on wanting to change your appearance because you feel ugly. The people in the book changed their appearance up to a point. The witch Dona Soledad looked dramatically younger and different.
I don’t know about dealing with disfiguration though. I wish I could help more.
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u/Puzzlehead-
1 points2020-06-07 15:28
Its ok thankyou very much for your reply. Im in my 40s and I have no money for the future to retire and no house to call my own so thats why i was thinking along those lines. I got really bad acne when i was younger and it left my face scarred and ugly looking, maybe i shouldnt have said disfigured. I have actually managed to improve my appearance in dreaming. The first time it happened i was in a dream and focused my Intent and felt a kind of zap on my face. When i woke up the pores were smaller and i was very happy but its still not good enough to be like a happy normal person that can attract a mate without worrying about it. In one dream i asked someone in the dream who I think was an inorganic being "how can i make my face perfect and beautiful?" The voice answered "youve already done that"
This made me confused becasue I thought did i do that in this dream earlier on but i dont remember? or are they referring to the other time?
Anyway it doesnt matter, sorry to bring up these personal things lol thankyou for understanding
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u/oceanic_1986
1 points2020-06-07 16:05
I think it’s a really interesting topic. I’d love to be able to use dreaming to change my appearance too. Not so much the scarring, but acne is a problem that’s bothered me for as long as I can remember. I’d love to get rid of it. My eyesight is bad too. I’d love to fix that. I’m really interested in the idea of it.
It seems like we should be able to. I mean, why not?
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u/[deleted]
2 points2020-06-07 16:21deleted
[deleted]
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u/[deleted]
1 points2020-06-07 13:50deleted
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u/danl999
4 points2020-06-07 18:38
Can anyone find the specific quote?
I tried, but my "searchable pdf" found no occurrences of ghoul.
I'll put my 2 cents in on this topic.
If you practice scooping colors, you get a bunch of weird stuff to happen.
One of the strangest is when you are fully awake, eyes open, a portal appears, and you enter another world.
Through your bedroom wall!
You don't see the wall at that time, only the portal.
But if you keep track of how you entered, you certainly walked too far.
With your feet!
I've also followed Cholita's dreaming body in the same manner. Too far out of the room.
Had to be my dreaming body, but when I changed over is a mystery to me.
I once remained 3 hours in another world. Fully awake, never went to sleep, and remained fully lucid.
Everything seemed normal. Remember, in a dream, even if you manage to get lucid, you run out of energy and either wake up, or lose the lucidity.
This wasn't a dream.
But eventually, I woke up in bed laying on my side.
I started out sitting up on pillows.
I ended up tucked safely in bed under the covers.
Other times I can see another world, but when I walk towards it I can't go in. The wall stops me.
What this means to me is, the 2 bodies can act separately.
Or combined.
Also, several in here have experienced seeing their own dreaming double as a black figure that gives off a feeling of fright, or which gives you goosebumps when you realize it's around you.
I don't know why we believe it's actually us, and not something else like an IOB.
You just feel it at the time.
It has a sort of malicious familiarity, as if it were your tricky older brother who has a switchblade, but never really uses it.
You can feel the confidence and also the tendency to be ruthless.
Again, there's us in 2 places at the same time! Two copies.
Lately I've also been pursuing something I believed was, "the nagual" in a solid form. By solid I just mean, self-contained and able to act.
It runs around in a matrix that forms in my dark room. Like a gremlin hopping from place to place with no regard for gravity.
That matrix goes far into the second attention.
So far that even Cholita could not follow me in, despite trying very hard. She didn't have the energetic mass to do it.
I'm not sure calling that thing, "the nagual" is correct, but you can literally feel it. It's pleasure and excitement, all rolled into a "thing" you can interact with.
It's so wonderful, you feel like if you could only hang out with it all the time, you'd be in heaven.
And so there are 3 different "things" you can run into, all of which seem to be yourself.
Now what if you focused obsessively on the real world, with your second attention?
You might indeed obsess those things with the real world.
That qualifies as a "ghoul" to me!
But I don't think any of us is in danger of becoming as aberrant as the old sorcerers.
If anything, we're fancy pants cry babies. Too socialized to become that wicked.
And the wicked ones among us don't have the discipline to learn sorcery.
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u/Puzzlehead-
3 points2020-06-07 22:00
Hi Dan ! , i found the quote from the first chapter of The Eagles Gift called The Fixation of the Second Attention. All this time i think ive had a wrong idea about what all this means, thank God for the internet and being able to talk to other people.
"When warriors learn to focus on the weak side of the second attention nothing can stand in their way. They become hunters of men; ghouls. Even if they are no longer alive, they can reach for their prey through time as if they were present here and now.
"The Nagual said that the fixation of the second attention has two faces. "The first and easier face is the evil one. It happens when dreamers use their dreaming to focus their second attention on the items of the world, like money and power over people.[\~ the world of the 1st attention] "The other face is the more difficult to reach and it happens when dreamers focus their second attention on items that are not in or from this world, such as the journey into the unknown. [\~ the world of the third attention] "Warriors need endless impeccability in order to reach this face."
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u/danl999
3 points2020-06-08 16:02
Wonderful!
All the "junk" from Carlos' books is actually pure gold.
Cholita has her second attention focused on the items of the world.
And she's getting more powerful all the time. I guess we'll get to see where that leads, however I suspect that's just normal for witches.
They use witchcraft to improve their situation or else what's the point?
As for focusing your second attention on exploration instead, I wouldn't say that refers to the third attention.
As I recall, you can't really explore that. You'd die.
But the second attention is endless, and it's actually easy to travel to other worlds. I did last night!
I think it's talking about that mostly.
Some of those other worlds even have welcoming committees of sorts.
Meaning, you get noticed and have a chance to interact with something new.
Just in general, I'd say the cyclic beings you can enter there, won't be noticed by the locals.
So you don't get noticed for being weird, if you just go along with whoever you end up being there.
But the inorganic beings there notice "foreigners".
I got an amazing show from one last night. It had Fairy's pretty face, and the body of Minx, basically machine parts.
It must have picked up on my favorite forms.
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u/oceanic_1986
1 points2020-06-09 12:53
But Daniel, is there a “danger” in using the 2nd attention to focus on worldly things like Cholita is doing? Is that “evil” as the passage suggests? It reads as a warning.
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u/danl999
5 points2020-06-09 16:10
For women, I think not.
Men are the ones obsessed with objects. Women tend to be more worried about the whole environment.
Cholita is a good example. Being a single man, my home had lots of places which needed cleaning.
Didn't bother me much.
But Cholita moved in, and with no social pressure the entire house and yard looks like someone cleaned it with a tooth brush.
Even the nooks and crannies!
Women and men are just different.
Besides, wouldn't an "evil" woman be kind of interesting?
I've dated a few, but there was no magic involved.
With magic, the evil is a learning experience.
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u/oceanic_1986
1 points2020-06-09 16:37
Okay, interesting, thank you.
Getting off the subject, but I do love this path for providing room and perspective for/from women. That’s probably part of why it resonates with me more.
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u/danl999
2 points2020-06-09 17:19
We need more of it.
Women are a mystery to me. Never been able to help any learn before.
Cholita doesn't count. Just her presence in my home causes us to interact in a sorcery fashion.
Found a new spell in the yard today... Or rather in front of the yard, on the street near the gutter.
I had brought her home some smooth river rocks I'd found, around 1 inch in diameter. I found them while walking along outside, practicing silence.
She likes to paint swirly patterns in the yard, using various materials.
I thought she'll fill in the one in the front yard a bit more, if she had more rocks of that type.
So I carefully laid them in a little pile, near her rock swirly pattern. When she wasn't home.
She found them the next day, kicked the hell out of them, and scattered them into the street. The kick sent dirt and redwood chips all the way across the sidewalk.
Normally Cholita cleans something like that up, but she made a point not to.
Then she placed a spell over them.
It consisted of red aprons, and who knows what else. I only notice the obvious stuff.
When I came home she was wearing a skirt that was just above her knees, posed on the chair near the dining room table for me to see. Legs crossed very nicely with the skirt draping over the chair, so that it was obvious her bare butt was resting on the chair.
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u/oceanic_1986
1 points2020-06-09 17:21
That’s no way to treat a gift! She sounds mean.
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u/danl999
2 points2020-06-09 17:39
She's as mean as they come!
I have to worry everyday when I come home, if she'll beat me up.
Or spit on me.
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u/tryerrr
1 points2020-06-11 13:00
Cleaning may be side effect of aggressive energy excess, trying to make the world conform, cleaning exerts power on objects and synchronizes the actual reality to the projected one.
By doing small things you then gain confirmation (“courage”) to try bigger and bigger. Cleaning is there to give ramp, might not be as useful to those already successfully doing “bigger reality changes”.
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u/danl999
2 points2020-06-11 16:43
Yep, that's how Cholita behaves.
It's nice though. I come home to find out she's painted a chessboard on the wall switches.
Or decorated the back door to look like an Italian Bistro.
According to the Taiwanese bosses' son, she's trying to turn her environment into an eccentric Los Angeles coffee house.
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u/syncmaster753
1 points2020-06-09 19:33
But sorcerers train to to make the first and second attention into one single unit which is what gives them the the power to face the third attention?
Don Juan described it I'll find the source
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u/SilenceisGolden29
1 points2020-06-10 16:31
You guys seem to still work under the assumption that doing this is evil. And yet the only reason you think it’s evil is because your ego would be bolstered and you will end up chasing fame and money. Something that society and culture has engrained in you.
There are many people that have used intent naturally without any sorcery training to atleast attain a certain level of freedom from the rigorous rat race that is the foundation of the current level of our civilization.
At some point in the future, there may not be a need to work 40-80 hours a week to make a living, and everyone will have a comfortable home and security of this type well into old age. What happens to a persons desires then when their basic needs are met, and the typical anxiety of making a living and preparing for the future are gone. Then you will see true creativity, and true sorcery be achieved.
Until then, you have to use ur intent wisely, and you need to use it to generate the basic necessity’s of life. You need money for food, you need shelter, and a decent home. You need to provide for the responsibilities of your loved ones. And you need to have money and a certain level of freedom to go out and explore the world, and make things happen!
And then you are truly free to explore all aspects of your potential. Until then, you are never truly giving it your all.
36 Comments
It's like the first attention is living at the expense of second attention so they are at conflict with each other.
Don Juan described first attention to an island and second attention to the water surrounding it.
The gateway to the third attention which is our real self is by merging the first and second attention.
The reason to merge these two and making it a single entity is because they are naturally in conflict and repel each other.
Hmm i think i see what you mean. I wonder about transforming into an animal though, isnt that also focusing the second attention into the first? Ive always had hopes i could heal and transform my physical body and face through dreaming as im disfigured and ugly. However maybe its different because im only focusing on myself. I read in one of those books how the energy of a luminous being can be transformed, through will, into anything. I guess thats a different and non evil thing? hmm
I believe you're mixing information someone else came up with, which is not part of Castaneda's books.
Not sure though. Could you please show me where you got this information?
As I recall, the third attention is reached by moving the assemblage point rapidly across the entire band of man, to light up all the emanations at once.
And you die as a result.
You arrive at it naturally, by moving the assemblage point daily, across that "J" curve I posted about.
The first attention is at the top of the J, the second attention at any position a few inches down, along the 4 foot path.
It has very little to do with what you said, from what I've read. But I'm banned from reading the books anymore. Cholita loves to tempt me though. She has one of Carlos' books in every place you might walk by, in our home. Just sitting there.
Maybe you picked up a "me-too nagual" piece of information, like from Armando, Miguel, or Vicente?
People tend to obsess on the "cooler" things in the books.
They don' t do the work to actually learn anything, but instead become "Castaneda experts". I supposed that's all they wanted.
The third attention is often a fantasy among them, just because it sounds like they're really far long if they know anything about it.
But in fact, the real thing is a lot cooler than just talking about it!
Dan, could you elaborate please?
I've read this in the books, but Carlos also mentioned it in class more than once.
From my own experience, if you scoop colors in darkness, you learn to move your assemblage point.
At first, you only notice that cool stuff happens, and you get tingly feelings.
But eventually you actually feel it move, and learn how to move it.
You can't always do it, but even a single breath can move it very far, when done in perfect silence.
The silence lets it move, the breath is enough of a push on the shoulder to displace it.
And no wonder Tensegrity works, when silent! Once it's loose from silence, ANY movement can make it shift.
Thus the failure of workshops is obviously, no one took the time to learn to get fully silent. Carlos didn't have enough time to push that goal. He probably figured people were actually practicing silence on their own, but he was wrong.
Silence = visible magic. Since we hear of none, they didn't learn silence! Or they're keeping their mouths shut for unknown reasons.
The path it shifts along is that J curve Carlos traced on a woman in class.
Of course, when struck on the shoulder, it goes straight through the ball of cheese. But it seems that when you move it yourself, it takes that J curve path.
I supposed, when you get very good at moving it, as a result of doing it daily, you learn to move it so rapidly that the emanations lit up in that path, don't have time to cool off.
I suppose we could conclude from this that the glowing emanations have some "persistance", meaning, they don't light up or go off instantly.
Maybe they're like a nail you heat up to yellow hot with a torch, then take the torch away. On it's own, it cools fairly slowly.
It'll still be glowing some color for a few seconds.
I suppose, if you moved your assemblage point rapidly across the entire curve, you could light up more than is normally lit up.
You'd be aware of all of man's band at once.
And, you "burn with the fire from within".
It means death. I suspect the body remains behind.
It could be, any cyclic being we can inhabit picks up physical matter from their world. And it's independent of our awareness.
Carlos' books say a few things about the third attention which let new people speculate, but they inevitably misunderstand it.
It says something like, "on the outskirts of the third attention".
That could simply mean, you're very good at moving your assemblage point, and can play with lighting up more than usual.
But that probably wouldn't feel like you're standing there tingling all over.
It would likely feel like you were existing in multiple worlds at once.
But who knows. We all have a lot more work to do, to understand it.
Edited once
In the books it is told that it is an ultimate death defiance, like all the being becomes pure awareness, "shoes and all" as Carlos told.. Meaning unlimited awareness instead of a cocoon capable or traveling maneuvers incomprehensible. Interestingly, in latest book it is mentioned such being is alive until the Earth itself is. So it is not immortality. But maybe Carlos just used shoes and all to encourage and motivate people? It is very very speculative, but the closest I can think of is a Dzogchen, with their rainbow body as an ultimate liberation. It is described in a very similar fashion speaking about a complete, bodily transformation into light. But as you have very well noted, we are vastly far from this achievement, so this kind of speculation is just what it is - a purest speculation..
I asked because I was surprised you mentioned it as death.
Some quote (not for an " nagualism expert" thing as I am not, but just for your comment):
"Don Juan and Genaro came to my side and looked at me with an expression of surprise.
"What are we really doing, don Juan?" I asked. "Is it possible that warriors are only preparing
themselves for death?"
"No way," he said, gently patting my shoulder. "Warriors prepare themselves to be aware, and
full awareness comes to them only when there is no more self-importance left in them. Only
when they are nothing do they become everything."
We were quiet for a moment."
"The fact that such a maneuver is possible, he said, is something of the most singular
importance to seers, old and new alike, but for reasons diametrically opposed. Knowing about it
allowed the old seers to move their assemblage point to inconceivable dreaming positions in the
incommensurable unknown; for the new seers it means refusing to be food, it means escaping the
Eagle by moving their assemblage points to a particular dreaming position called total freedom.
He explained that the old seers discovered that it is possible to move the assemblage point to
the limit of the known and keep it fixed there in a state of prime heightened awareness. From that
position, they saw the feasibility of slowly shifting their assemblage points permanently to other
positions beyond that limit - a stupendous feat fraught with daring but lacking sobriety, for they
could never retract the movement of their assemblage points, or perhaps they never wanted to.
Don Juan said that adventurous men, faced with the choice of dying in the world of ordinary
affairs or dying in unknown worlds, will unavoidably choose the latter, and that the new seers,
realizing that their predecessors had chosen merely to change the locale of their death, came to
understand the futility of it all; the futility of struggling to control their fellow men, the futility of
assembling other worlds, and, above all, the futility of self-importance.
One of the most fortunate decisions that the new seers made, he said, was never to allow their
assemblage points to move permanently to any position other than heightened awareness. From
that position, they actually resolved their dilemma of futility and found out that the solution is not
simply to choose an alternate world in which to die, but to choose total consciousness, total
freedom.
Don Juan commented that by choosing total freedom, the new seers unwittingly continued in
the tradition of their predecessors and became the quintessence of the death defiers.
He explained that the new seers discovered that if the assemblage point is made to shift
constantly to the confines of the unknown, but is made to return to a position at the limit of the
known, then when it is suddenly released it moves like lightning across the entire cocoon of man,
aligning all the emanations inside the cocoon at once.
"The new seers burn with the force of alignment," don Juan went on, "with the force of will,
which they have turned into the force of intent through a life of impeccability. Intent is the alignment of all the amber emanations of awareness, so it is correct to say that total freedom
means total awareness."
Maybe he was hoping Tensegrity would help to attain it?
This is a curious point. So when you enter these worlds, you kind of become some other being inhabiting it? It is strange that this topic really came up later on, just some mentionings here and there by Carlos and the Witches. And during the private classes. In the books it was not mentioned explicitly that you become some other being when entering other worlds, like you are still yourself, either in dreaming or the physical body. Maybe Carlos had his reasons not to put this into books, or put in very vague manner. Maybe there are different kinds of entrances? Or you always "inhabit" some parallel being?
That's why it's necessarily to daily move it. And while doing that, you do indeed discover it could be made to move very fast.
So the entrance to the third attention isn't a mystery at all. If you play with the second attention everyday, so that your assemblage point is moving all over the place, you eventually notice you can make it shift on demand, and it slides easily now.
He might have been deliberately slowing people down, the way Buddhists tell students to ignore the visions.
And he'd planned to get them in better shape psychologically and physically before introducing real magic.
He gave up on that at the end, teaching us "the wall", and how to manifest things by compressing chi balls.
He just ran out of time. I'm sure what he had planned would have worked, if he'd had another 5 years.
No, not always. The world could be virtual, built only from your own intent (like a dream but more stable).
And there are shared dreaming worlds.
It's probably a bit mushy. Half and half at times, 100% cyclic being at others.
You come with their memories once you switch.
The blue scout is curious in this regard.
She's supposedly Patty Parton, but Patty Parton had a life before Carlos.
On the other hand, Carlos tried to weave everyone into the intent of sorcery, which is mandatory to get a boost.
Everything I've learned came in little "gifts" from intent along the years. I did something more advanced than I'm capable of, and then the next time could not.
But they kept me trying hard, which resulted in something else.
This seems relevant:
"The greatest difference between an average man and a sorcerer is that a sorcerer commands
his death with his speed," don Juan went on. "If it comes to that, the jaguar will not eat me. He'll
eat you, because you don't have the speed to hold back your death."
He then elaborated on the intricacies of the sorcerers' idea of speed and death. He said that in
the world of everyday life our word or our decisions could be reversed very easily. The only
irrevocable thing in our world was death. In the sorcerers' world, on the other hand, normal death
could be countermanded, but not the sorcerers' word. In the sorcerers' world decisions could not
be changed or revised. Once they had been made, they stood forever.
I told him his statements, impressive as they were, could not convince me that death could be
revoked. And he explained once more what he had explained before. He said that for a seer
human beings were either oblong or spherical luminous masses of countless, static, yet vibrant
fields of energy, and that only sorcerers were capable of injecting movement into those spheres of
static luminosity. In a millisecond they could move their assemblage points to any place in their
luminous mass. That movement and the speed with which it was performed entailed an
instantaneous shift into the perception of another totally different universe. Or they could move
their assemblage points, without stopping, across their entire fields of luminous energy. The force
created by such movement was so intense that it instantly consumed their whole luminous mass.
He said that if a rockslide were to come crashing down on us at that precise moment, he would
be able to cancel the normal effect of an accidental death. By using the speed with which his
assemblage point would move, he could make himself change universes or make himself burn
from within in a fraction of a second. I, on the other hand, would die a normal death, crushed by
the rocks, because my assemblage point lacked the speed to pull me out."
Yes, Carlos mentioned it in the passes book.
But if it is not virtual, then you always inhabit the parallel being, at least at 50%, like you are no longer you? A post on this topic of types of worlds would be great, but it could drive more inventory for some as well..
I'd rather not describe specific worlds. That way, if someone finds one we can compare notes without my having influenced anyone.
But there is one I'll mention, just to give an example.
There is a little European chateau in the mountains, plagued by a fierce black beast which roams the roads looking for food.
The locals tolerate it because it's very intelligent.
But it can still kill people on occasion.
I got the impression it was so intelligent, it would have to have a grudge against you for something you did, before it would harm you. And you always have the option to just hide and stay out of its way.
Some of the locals like to follow it along the road above the main road, so they can watch it roam.
Agree 100%. I was talking about "types" of world in an abstract manner and whether you enter as yourself or someone else in regards to them. Certainly not about the specific ones. But thanks for the description! :-)
Yes, you are someone else. But it probably won't occur to you.
You pick up the memories of whoever you become. But, you're still a little unsure of things.
The locals seem to go along with you, as if nothing were odd.
By the way, that quote you had about assembling another world to escape a rock slide, seems to add weight to the idea that you can in fact teleport.
I haven't seen evidence of it yet, but it's nice to know it's possible.
In that case, you have to take your physical matter along. That's the part I can't figure out.
If you can take your physical matter out of the way of a rock slide, how come you have to take over someone else in another world?
And how come the allies can kidnap you in 2 stages?
Once in your second attention body, probably simply keeping your dreaming body from wandering around the way it normally does, while your waking body doesn't know any better.
It's always out there roaming around.
But then, a few of them can return and pull your physical matter along too, presumably leaving nothing behind.
Likely, both ways of traveling, in all physicality, or only in your double, are possible?
I can understand that! A bit offtopic, but there was a man writing about out of body experiences - Robert Monroe with a book "Journeys out of body". He is unrelated to Castaneda, but most likely a natural dreamer. He has described some world where he was someone else, like a special out of body state different from the usual one. Just look at his description:
"Locale III, in summary, proved to be a physical-matter world almost identical to our own. The natural
environment is the same. There are trees, houses, cities, people, artifacts, and all the appurtenances of
a reasonably civilized society. There are homes, families, businesses, and people work for a living.
There are roads on which vehicles travel. There are railroads and trains.
Now for the “almost”. At first, the thought was that Locale III was no more than some part of our world
unknown to me and those others concerned. It had all the appearances of being so. However, more
careful study showed that it can be neither the present nor the past of our physical-matter world.
The scientific development is inconsistent. There are no electrical devices whatsoever. Electricity,
electromagnetics, and anything so related are non-existent. No electric lights, telephones, radios,
television, or electric power.
No internal combustion, gasoline, or oil were found as power sources. Yet mechanical power is used.
Careful examination of one of the locomotives that pulled a string of old-fashioned-looking passenger
cars showed it to be driven by a steam engine. The cars appeared to be made of wood, the locomotive
of metal, but of a different shape than our now obsolete types. The track gauge was much smaller than
our standard track spacing, smaller than our narrow-gauge mountain railways.
I observed the servicing of one of the locomotives in detail. Neither wood nor coal was used as a
thermal source to produce steam. Instead, large vatlike containers were carefully slid from under the
boiler, detached, and rolled by small cart into a building with massive thick walls. The containers had
pipelike protuberances extending from the top. Men working behind shields performed the removal,
casually cautious, and did not relax their automatic vigilance until the containers were safely in the
building and the door closed. The contents were “hot,” either through heat or radiation. The actions of
the technicians all seemed to indicate the latter.
The streets and roads are different, again principally in size. The “lane” on which vehicles travel is
nearly twice as wide as ours. Their version of our automobile is much larger. Even the smallest has a
single bench seat that will hold five to six people abreast. The standard unit has only one fixed seat,
that of the driver. Others are much like living-room chairs, placed around a compartment that
measures some fifteen by twenty feet. Wheels are used, but without inflated tyres. Steering is done by a
single horizontal bar. Motive power is contained somewhere in the rear. Their movement is not very
fast, at something like fifteen to twenty miles per hour. Traffic is not heavy.
Self-powered vehicles exist in the form of a four-wheeled platform which is steered by the feet acting
upon the front wheels. A mechanism pumped by the arms transfers the energy to the rear wheels,
much like the children's “rowing wagons” of some years back. These are used for short distances.
Habits and customs are not like ours. What little has been gleaned implies a historical background
with different events, names, places, and dates. Yet, while the stage of man's evolution (the conscious
mind translates the inhabitants as men) seems to be identical, technical and social evolution are not
completely the same.
The major discovery came soon after I gathered the courage for extended expeditions into Locale III. In
spite of early indications, the people there were not aware of my presence until I met and “merged”
temporarily and involuntarily with one who can only be described as the “I” who lives “there”. The only
explanation I can think of is that I, fully conscious of living and being “here,” was attracted to and
began momentarily to inhabit the body of a person “there,” much like myself.
When this took place—-and it began to be an automatic process when I went to Locale III—-I simply took
over “his” body. There was no awareness of his mental presence when I temporarily displaced him. My
knowledge of him and his activities and his past came from his family, and what was evidently his
brain memory-bank. Though I knew that I was not he, I could feel objectively the emotional patterns of
his past. I have wondered what embarrassment I have caused him as a result of the periods of
amnesia created by my intrusions. Some must have brought him much distress.
Here is his life: “I” There at the first intrusion, was a rather lonely man. He was not particularly
successful in his field (architect-contractor), and not too gregarious. He came of what might be
classified as a low-income group, and succeeded in going to the equivalent of a minor college. He
spent much of his early career in a large city in an ordinary job. He lived on the second floor of a
rooming house, and took a bus to work. It was a strange city to him, and he made few friends. (The
bus, incidentally, was very wide, seating eight abreast, and seats rose behind the driver in successively
higher tiers, so that all could see the road ahead.) My first intrusion caught him just as he was getting
off the bus. The driver looked at him suspiciously when I tried to pay a fare. It seems that none is
charged."
Interesting enough, yes? :-)
To be honest, this is the reason why I started the conversation with you on this topic. This is exactly the point which had crossed my mind. Which seems unresolvable logically.
From Carlos' books, it seems to be so. Maybe there is something very special about the fact you enter dreaming awake? If I am not mistaking it, Carlos referred to this dreaming induced from silence as a very special way of doing it, different from the usual one.
By the way, Cleargreen is definitely aware of this topic. Renata has spoken on many occasions about dreaming other worlds with our paralel beings.
Ah, someone who doesn't take the standard line, such as re-incarnation.
He actually determined if it would be the same world.
So understand this: Sorcery isn't really all that complicated.
It only seems that way because of Carlos' books, and the elaborate way don Juan taught him.
Unnecessarily over complicated.
But, it gave us a look at how the old sorcerers, and even modern shamans, do what they do.
They don't have a full understanding, just procedures which produce a result.
But the truth is, find any way to move the assemblage point, such as scooping colors, combine that with silence, and you'll go all the way.
It's not the techniques or results we're trying to learn.
We're not trying to repeat anything, in order to gain some advantage over our fellow men.
We just want to move that assemblage point, as far as possible, every single day.
That leads to the third attention.
Maybe cleargreen 1 and 2 weren't concerned with Carlos' reputation, so they've been doing everything eyes closed.
I want to PROVE his techniques, so I have to do it fully awake with eyes open, and with a partner (Cholita).
No one cares what you dream while sleeping. Or even if you claim to be dreaming while awake, but are sitting in a chair with eyes closed.
All the impressive stuff from the books takes place fully awake. That's what hooks people.
We need to do that, to overcome the "Inconsistencies in the Books", by Jeremy Donovan, types of nonsense out there.
Really Jeremy??? Too lazy to try it, so kill the teacher instead?
http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/early_book_inconsistencies.htm
He spells Cholita's sponsor's name as "Margaret". So I guess that still isn't resolved.
This morning, I discovered a way to move my assemblage point by gazing directly at something only from the second attention.
Nothing else. I supposed that means, I found a use for an abstract dream.
After an hour moving my assemblage point back and forth, Cholita and Minx came into my room.
But Minx was pretending to be her child. I'm not sure Cholita realized what was going on, but she spoke to me.
That hasn't happened before.
Probably I slipped too far into sleeping dreaming.
The ancient sorcerers definitely used their attention to capture the energy of their fellow men, I’m sure some became kings.
Other kings tried to emulate those sorcerers but could never master the intent required to manipulate awareness.
Those men stole energy without the knowledge to effectively use it to beacon intent and in turn only inspired fear and eventually died probably horrific deaths.
I think I met one of those men once.
I can understand the desire for power ( super powers as Dan99 would put it )
The ability to use sorcery to gain wealth, fame, sex...
Unfortunately I also realize the deeper you dig into impeccability and dreaming and stalking the farther away those desires become. I have found that the more power I manage to store up that energy is quickly dissipated with mundane tasks of daily life.
The ability to manipulate others intent using your will must be enormous!
The ability to manipulate the world to rain down money upon you must be simply god like.
I know I work with the mentally ill and I wish I could just smack their assemblage points back into a regular position but I’m helpless.
I see their assemblage points mis aligned but I can’t move them.
I can however move mine, for me that’s worth all the money in the world because I know what my fate is.
Im starting to think i might have misunderstood this. Maybe a modern day person can focus thier dreaming onto money without necessarliy becoming a ghoul or hunter of men. Just not sure exactly how that works. Does it have to be specific like say i have a business selling Tacos so i go into dreaming and focus my Intent to sell a million Tacos and now suddenly im selling a million Tacos. Or could it be more general like I just focus in general I want a million dollars and BOOM the magic happens. No need for becoming a ghoul or hunter of men.
edit: in case youre wondering this whole concept is from the book The Eagles Gift, i didnt imagine it myself about this fixating of the second attention turning people into ghouls.
I’m under the impression that it works more like you close your eyes wishing you could become a millionaire selling tacos 🌮 yet what will happens is you burn yourself on the stove making tacos day after day until you take up fishing.
All things that can be described is first attention all that have a tag.
I totally get the temptation. Money is a tool, almost analogous to power and freedom. We need money to make transactions for things we need and want.
But don’t mistake money for actual freedom or power. Remember La Gorda used to get fat off the food people handed to her for free. No money needed. There’s an element of personal power to that.
Developing personal power is more versatile and useful.
And the kind of spiritual freedom you get from this sort of practice is more vast and can take you further than any plane ticket you could buy with money.
If you focus strictly on money instead of the deeper, cooler stuff, you’re probably short changing yourself.
I don’t know about the scare tactics saying you’ll turn into a ghoul or hunter of men... but those people turn into that somehow, so perhaps it’s a valid warning?
Now it sounds like your real question was on wanting to change your appearance because you feel ugly. The people in the book changed their appearance up to a point. The witch Dona Soledad looked dramatically younger and different.
I don’t know about dealing with disfiguration though. I wish I could help more.
Its ok thankyou very much for your reply. Im in my 40s and I have no money for the future to retire and no house to call my own so thats why i was thinking along those lines. I got really bad acne when i was younger and it left my face scarred and ugly looking, maybe i shouldnt have said disfigured. I have actually managed to improve my appearance in dreaming. The first time it happened i was in a dream and focused my Intent and felt a kind of zap on my face. When i woke up the pores were smaller and i was very happy but its still not good enough to be like a happy normal person that can attract a mate without worrying about it. In one dream i asked someone in the dream who I think was an inorganic being "how can i make my face perfect and beautiful?" The voice answered "youve already done that"
This made me confused becasue I thought did i do that in this dream earlier on but i dont remember? or are they referring to the other time?
Anyway it doesnt matter, sorry to bring up these personal things lol thankyou for understanding
I think it’s a really interesting topic. I’d love to be able to use dreaming to change my appearance too. Not so much the scarring, but acne is a problem that’s bothered me for as long as I can remember. I’d love to get rid of it. My eyesight is bad too. I’d love to fix that. I’m really interested in the idea of it.
It seems like we should be able to. I mean, why not?
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Can anyone find the specific quote?
I tried, but my "searchable pdf" found no occurrences of ghoul.
I'll put my 2 cents in on this topic.
If you practice scooping colors, you get a bunch of weird stuff to happen.
One of the strangest is when you are fully awake, eyes open, a portal appears, and you enter another world.
Through your bedroom wall!
You don't see the wall at that time, only the portal.
But if you keep track of how you entered, you certainly walked too far.
With your feet!
I've also followed Cholita's dreaming body in the same manner. Too far out of the room.
Had to be my dreaming body, but when I changed over is a mystery to me.
I once remained 3 hours in another world. Fully awake, never went to sleep, and remained fully lucid.
Everything seemed normal. Remember, in a dream, even if you manage to get lucid, you run out of energy and either wake up, or lose the lucidity.
This wasn't a dream.
But eventually, I woke up in bed laying on my side.
I started out sitting up on pillows.
I ended up tucked safely in bed under the covers.
Other times I can see another world, but when I walk towards it I can't go in. The wall stops me.
What this means to me is, the 2 bodies can act separately.
Or combined.
Also, several in here have experienced seeing their own dreaming double as a black figure that gives off a feeling of fright, or which gives you goosebumps when you realize it's around you.
I don't know why we believe it's actually us, and not something else like an IOB.
You just feel it at the time.
It has a sort of malicious familiarity, as if it were your tricky older brother who has a switchblade, but never really uses it.
You can feel the confidence and also the tendency to be ruthless.
Again, there's us in 2 places at the same time! Two copies.
Lately I've also been pursuing something I believed was, "the nagual" in a solid form. By solid I just mean, self-contained and able to act.
It runs around in a matrix that forms in my dark room. Like a gremlin hopping from place to place with no regard for gravity.
That matrix goes far into the second attention.
So far that even Cholita could not follow me in, despite trying very hard. She didn't have the energetic mass to do it.
I'm not sure calling that thing, "the nagual" is correct, but you can literally feel it. It's pleasure and excitement, all rolled into a "thing" you can interact with.
It's so wonderful, you feel like if you could only hang out with it all the time, you'd be in heaven.
And so there are 3 different "things" you can run into, all of which seem to be yourself.
Now what if you focused obsessively on the real world, with your second attention?
You might indeed obsess those things with the real world.
That qualifies as a "ghoul" to me!
But I don't think any of us is in danger of becoming as aberrant as the old sorcerers.
If anything, we're fancy pants cry babies. Too socialized to become that wicked.
And the wicked ones among us don't have the discipline to learn sorcery.
Hi Dan ! , i found the quote from the first chapter of The Eagles Gift called The Fixation of the Second Attention. All this time i think ive had a wrong idea about what all this means, thank God for the internet and being able to talk to other people.
"When warriors learn to focus on the weak side of the second attention nothing can stand in their way. They become hunters of men; ghouls. Even if they are no longer alive, they can reach for their prey through time as if they were present here and now.
"The Nagual said that the fixation of the second attention has two faces. "The first and easier face is the evil one. It happens when dreamers use their dreaming to focus their second attention on the items of the world, like money and power over people.[\~ the world of the 1st attention] "The other face is the more difficult to reach and it happens when dreamers focus their second attention on items that are not in or from this world, such as the journey into the unknown. [\~ the world of the third attention] "Warriors need endless impeccability in order to reach this face."
Wonderful!
All the "junk" from Carlos' books is actually pure gold.
Cholita has her second attention focused on the items of the world.
And she's getting more powerful all the time. I guess we'll get to see where that leads, however I suspect that's just normal for witches.
They use witchcraft to improve their situation or else what's the point?
As for focusing your second attention on exploration instead, I wouldn't say that refers to the third attention.
As I recall, you can't really explore that. You'd die.
But the second attention is endless, and it's actually easy to travel to other worlds. I did last night!
I think it's talking about that mostly.
Some of those other worlds even have welcoming committees of sorts.
Meaning, you get noticed and have a chance to interact with something new.
Just in general, I'd say the cyclic beings you can enter there, won't be noticed by the locals.
So you don't get noticed for being weird, if you just go along with whoever you end up being there.
But the inorganic beings there notice "foreigners".
I got an amazing show from one last night. It had Fairy's pretty face, and the body of Minx, basically machine parts.
It must have picked up on my favorite forms.
But Daniel, is there a “danger” in using the 2nd attention to focus on worldly things like Cholita is doing? Is that “evil” as the passage suggests? It reads as a warning.
For women, I think not.
Men are the ones obsessed with objects. Women tend to be more worried about the whole environment.
Cholita is a good example. Being a single man, my home had lots of places which needed cleaning.
Didn't bother me much.
But Cholita moved in, and with no social pressure the entire house and yard looks like someone cleaned it with a tooth brush.
Even the nooks and crannies!
Women and men are just different.
Besides, wouldn't an "evil" woman be kind of interesting?
I've dated a few, but there was no magic involved.
With magic, the evil is a learning experience.
Okay, interesting, thank you.
Getting off the subject, but I do love this path for providing room and perspective for/from women. That’s probably part of why it resonates with me more.
We need more of it.
Women are a mystery to me. Never been able to help any learn before.
Cholita doesn't count. Just her presence in my home causes us to interact in a sorcery fashion.
Found a new spell in the yard today... Or rather in front of the yard, on the street near the gutter.
I had brought her home some smooth river rocks I'd found, around 1 inch in diameter. I found them while walking along outside, practicing silence.
She likes to paint swirly patterns in the yard, using various materials.
I thought she'll fill in the one in the front yard a bit more, if she had more rocks of that type.
So I carefully laid them in a little pile, near her rock swirly pattern. When she wasn't home.
She found them the next day, kicked the hell out of them, and scattered them into the street. The kick sent dirt and redwood chips all the way across the sidewalk.
Normally Cholita cleans something like that up, but she made a point not to.
Then she placed a spell over them.
It consisted of red aprons, and who knows what else. I only notice the obvious stuff.
When I came home she was wearing a skirt that was just above her knees, posed on the chair near the dining room table for me to see. Legs crossed very nicely with the skirt draping over the chair, so that it was obvious her bare butt was resting on the chair.
That’s no way to treat a gift! She sounds mean.
She's as mean as they come!
I have to worry everyday when I come home, if she'll beat me up.
Or spit on me.
Cleaning may be side effect of aggressive energy excess, trying to make the world conform, cleaning exerts power on objects and synchronizes the actual reality to the projected one.
By doing small things you then gain confirmation (“courage”) to try bigger and bigger. Cleaning is there to give ramp, might not be as useful to those already successfully doing “bigger reality changes”.
Yep, that's how Cholita behaves.
It's nice though. I come home to find out she's painted a chessboard on the wall switches.
Or decorated the back door to look like an Italian Bistro.
According to the Taiwanese bosses' son, she's trying to turn her environment into an eccentric Los Angeles coffee house.
But sorcerers train to to make the first and second attention into one single unit which is what gives them the the power to face the third attention?
Don Juan described it I'll find the source
You guys seem to still work under the assumption that doing this is evil. And yet the only reason you think it’s evil is because your ego would be bolstered and you will end up chasing fame and money. Something that society and culture has engrained in you.
There are many people that have used intent naturally without any sorcery training to atleast attain a certain level of freedom from the rigorous rat race that is the foundation of the current level of our civilization.
At some point in the future, there may not be a need to work 40-80 hours a week to make a living, and everyone will have a comfortable home and security of this type well into old age. What happens to a persons desires then when their basic needs are met, and the typical anxiety of making a living and preparing for the future are gone. Then you will see true creativity, and true sorcery be achieved.
Until then, you have to use ur intent wisely, and you need to use it to generate the basic necessity’s of life. You need money for food, you need shelter, and a decent home. You need to provide for the responsibilities of your loved ones. And you need to have money and a certain level of freedom to go out and explore the world, and make things happen!
And then you are truly free to explore all aspects of your potential. Until then, you are never truly giving it your all.