I just read CC wikipedia page. They say in there that some people doubted that Don Juan existed. I don't think that is true but I would be comforted to have validation that he did
General Knowledgeu/Anonomous872020-10-16 17:35 UTC3 pointsdeleted
22 Comments
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u/Vivid_Knowledge5421
10 points2020-10-16 18:58
Why? The existence of Don Juan and his lineage is irrelevant. For us, they are stories, myths. All that matters is the spirit. Get your own validation! That is what we're all trying so hard everyday! And most importantly, enjoy!
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u/Anonomous87
1 points2020-10-17 02:16
Yeah but it would give me more peace of mind if I know he existed
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u/Vivid_Knowledge5421
1 points2020-10-17 02:48
Where are the boundries where you consider that you actually know something? Provided that Carlos is already dead, and DJ lineage long gone (if it ever was here in the first place) with which kind of evidence would you be satisfied? Is there any evidence that could ease your mind? This applies to everything in life. We're not sure of absolutely anything, though we get different degrees of certainty. In Carlo's case, I'm sure there is absolutely no way anyone can provide any kind of evidence that would ease your mind, even if Carlos was still around.
Don't worry though, you're not alone in this feeling. We all get bit by it from time to time, some more than others. As warriors we can learn to get bit less often, to a point where doubts are meaningless.
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u/Anonomous87
1 points2020-10-17 02:51
Best ease of mind for me would be someone who actually knew Carlos and talked to him about Don Juan. Any other evidence is also fine.
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u/Vivid_Knowledge5421
5 points2020-10-17 02:55
Btw, when you feel like you need validation, read this:
"The flaw with words is that they always force us to feel enlightened, but when we turn around to face the world they always fail us and we end up facing the world as we always have, without enlightenment. For this reason, a sorcerer seeks to act rather than to talk and to this effect he gets a new description of the world--a new description where talking is not that important, and where new acts have new reflections. "
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u/TechnoMagical_Intent
8 points2020-10-16 19:19
Carlos put it this way (paraphrasing):
"People always ask me if don Juan actually existed. I tell them if he didn't, how the hell do they think I managed to wake up!"
He was a hopeless, often despondent academic. Nothing in his background would qualify him to invent any of this. No one person could.
If it was all fiction, it wouldn't work.
It does. All of it.
The negativity revolves around the periphery, amongst those who have defeated themselves before even really trying. You have to get through those sharks to reach the calmer waters.
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u/Anonomous87
1 points2020-10-17 02:17
Yes! These are the kind of comments I am looking for when I ask questions like this. That makes a lot of sense
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u/lurklops
1 points2020-10-17 04:26
Vigilance is great and reassurance feels great, just be careful where the dialogue clouds your perception
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u/apprentice2000
3 points2020-10-17 15:38
Academic people are usually not that creative, and there's far better writers in fiction. Just compare a Stephen King novel to a CC book, in terms of entertainment value CC stands no chance.
Looking at this rationally, there's no way that everything in CCs books is fictitious. Maybe we want to believe this for some reason, but it just doesn't add up.
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u/monkeyguy999
1 points2020-10-16 20:49
I have not seen him... But others around here have.
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u/lurklops
1 points2020-10-16 22:31
Whether he was or wasn't or how CC stumbled on these ideas, they hold up to many belief systems. Whether we're benefiting from his research that was given as a catchy story, or there really was a DJ, it's irrelevant. The knowledge is the key
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u/Anonomous87
2 points2020-10-17 02:29
I agree. I just would have more peace of mind if he did exist. I like Don Juan's teacher mentality. It is very much like a teacher I would like to have so he really resonates with me. I actually feel like I understand him more than when Carlos was writing his notes. If he was a real person that is
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u/lurklops
1 points2020-10-17 03:56
I can wholeheartedly agree with that, but the most important lesson is that it doesn't matter. I sincerely hope he was real, but if Carlos learned it all from a bunch of peyote trips, it's all the same. It's the story that's the trap and the lesson that's the key, in my opinion.
If he wasn't real, it gives credence to CCs perceived short comings, and inconsistencies. If he was real then the whole thing can be safely felt as real, and we all can continue on.
The reality is that it doesn't matter. He was onto something real. You never know; if he was real and it was a set of unfortunate circumstances that led to the belief that he wasn't, maybe that in itself is a test. We can ever know for sure, but we can continue to challenge ourselves!
You never know, maybe in that process you'll meet that man, myth and legend and find out for yourself what's really up ;)
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u/Anonomous87
2 points2020-10-17 04:19
I truly hope so. But yeah I totally agree
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u/couchbutt
1 points2020-10-16 23:57
"Some people doubted Don Juan existed." True.
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u/Tannereast
1 points2020-10-17 08:41
if he did or didnt exist makes little diffirence, the teachings or lessons or knowledge are in the books available to anyone reading them. "when the student is ready the teacher appears". I think there are lessons at many different levels in his books waiting for us at every corner.
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u/BuddhaBliss
1 points2020-10-17 15:59
From Journey to Ixtlan:
"Is all this true, don Juan?"
"To say yes or no to your question is doing. But since you are learning not-doing I have to tell you that it really doesn't matter whether or not all this is true.
It is here that a warrior has a point of advantage over the average man.
An average man cares that things are either true or false, but a warrior doesn't.
An average man proceeds in a specific way with things that he knows are true, and in a different way with things that he knows are not true.
If things are said to be true, he acts and believes in what he does. But if things are said to be untrue, he doesn't care to act, or he doesn't believe in what he does.
A warrior, on the other hand, acts in both instances.
If things are said to be true, he would act in order to do doing.
If things are said to be untrue, he still would act in order to do not-doing. See what I mean?"
Looking for ease of mind is just a way of being lazy.
Nothing will give you 100% ease of mind. What would it take for that?
In the meantime you'll doubt, and like an average man you won't care to act.
Push yourself and be willing to claim real magic.
Look around. There is a working method in here.
The proof is in the pudding. Darkroom gazing chocolate pudding. ; )
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u/Anonomous87
1 points2020-10-17 17:37
I never said this would stop me. I ultimately will still keep going whether Juan was a real person or not.
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u/BuddhaBliss
1 points2020-10-17 17:47
Awesome!
No need to be comforted then.
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u/danl999
2 points2020-10-17 17:14
Aren't we up to 8+ eye witnesses to don Juan, including Tony Lama, Carlos' adopted son, his wife, Taisha, Florinda, Carol, and several others I can't recall?
And we have the testimony of Ruby Modesto that the valley near Morongo Casino was filled with such men, before it was invaded by settlers.
How many verifications does there have to be?
I've seen him myself a good 10 times.
But in waking dreaming.
So I suppose nothing ever counts, until he hits you on the forehead with his shillelagh ?
Which reminds me. Why did Yoda have an Irish cane?
Was it a politically incorrect leprechaun joke? The fact that they're green???
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u/Anonomous87
1 points2020-10-17 17:42
See here the thing I'll still practice no matter if he is real or not. I actually was looking for this kind of comment when I posted this. It would be ideal to have somebody who had seen him while he was alive and present but I seriously doubt that would happen in this sub. So yes this does give me enough peace of mind. Thanks!
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u/danl999
3 points2020-10-17 17:53
I believe there are at least 3 instances in which Carlos admitted, don Juan and one other (Genaro or Silvio?) had a hand in the books.
Let's take a really exotic possibility!
A "re-run" is where you replay past events.
So you can see it yourself!
I've been around Genaro and don Juan using that. I believe I'd intercepted an apprentice who lived up north, and traveled south on the train. Or was visiting up north, the way La Gorda is said to have done.
When it's happening you just live it, and don't even think to look up and see who's talking to you. And you certainly don't try to figure out who you are!
You don't have the same desire to investigate, as you do when it's over.
So re-runs are a fact of life. And you'll get a chance to answer this question yourself!
But what if don Juan used re-runs to produce an "ideal" sorcery lineage?
For his books.
One that did in fact exist, but 600 years ago.
So it was true, but don Juan was already dead a half century when Carlos wrote about him.
22 Comments
Why? The existence of Don Juan and his lineage is irrelevant. For us, they are stories, myths. All that matters is the spirit. Get your own validation! That is what we're all trying so hard everyday! And most importantly, enjoy!
Yeah but it would give me more peace of mind if I know he existed
Where are the boundries where you consider that you actually know something? Provided that Carlos is already dead, and DJ lineage long gone (if it ever was here in the first place) with which kind of evidence would you be satisfied? Is there any evidence that could ease your mind? This applies to everything in life. We're not sure of absolutely anything, though we get different degrees of certainty. In Carlo's case, I'm sure there is absolutely no way anyone can provide any kind of evidence that would ease your mind, even if Carlos was still around.
Don't worry though, you're not alone in this feeling. We all get bit by it from time to time, some more than others. As warriors we can learn to get bit less often, to a point where doubts are meaningless.
Best ease of mind for me would be someone who actually knew Carlos and talked to him about Don Juan. Any other evidence is also fine.
Btw, when you feel like you need validation, read this:
"The flaw with words is that they always force us to feel enlightened, but when we turn around to face the world they always fail us and we end up facing the world as we always have, without enlightenment. For this reason, a sorcerer seeks to act rather than to talk and to this effect he gets a new description of the world--a new description where talking is not that important, and where new acts have new reflections. "
Carlos put it this way (paraphrasing):
"People always ask me if don Juan actually existed. I tell them if he didn't, how the hell do they think I managed to wake up!"
He was a hopeless, often despondent academic. Nothing in his background would qualify him to invent any of this. No one person could.
If it was all fiction, it wouldn't work.
It does. All of it.
The negativity revolves around the periphery, amongst those who have defeated themselves before even really trying. You have to get through those sharks to reach the calmer waters.
Yes! These are the kind of comments I am looking for when I ask questions like this. That makes a lot of sense
Vigilance is great and reassurance feels great, just be careful where the dialogue clouds your perception
Academic people are usually not that creative, and there's far better writers in fiction. Just compare a Stephen King novel to a CC book, in terms of entertainment value CC stands no chance.
Looking at this rationally, there's no way that everything in CCs books is fictitious. Maybe we want to believe this for some reason, but it just doesn't add up.
I have not seen him... But others around here have.
Whether he was or wasn't or how CC stumbled on these ideas, they hold up to many belief systems. Whether we're benefiting from his research that was given as a catchy story, or there really was a DJ, it's irrelevant. The knowledge is the key
I agree. I just would have more peace of mind if he did exist. I like Don Juan's teacher mentality. It is very much like a teacher I would like to have so he really resonates with me. I actually feel like I understand him more than when Carlos was writing his notes. If he was a real person that is
I can wholeheartedly agree with that, but the most important lesson is that it doesn't matter. I sincerely hope he was real, but if Carlos learned it all from a bunch of peyote trips, it's all the same. It's the story that's the trap and the lesson that's the key, in my opinion.
If he wasn't real, it gives credence to CCs perceived short comings, and inconsistencies. If he was real then the whole thing can be safely felt as real, and we all can continue on.
The reality is that it doesn't matter. He was onto something real. You never know; if he was real and it was a set of unfortunate circumstances that led to the belief that he wasn't, maybe that in itself is a test. We can ever know for sure, but we can continue to challenge ourselves!
You never know, maybe in that process you'll meet that man, myth and legend and find out for yourself what's really up ;)
I truly hope so. But yeah I totally agree
"Some people doubted Don Juan existed." True.
if he did or didnt exist makes little diffirence, the teachings or lessons or knowledge are in the books available to anyone reading them. "when the student is ready the teacher appears". I think there are lessons at many different levels in his books waiting for us at every corner.
From Journey to Ixtlan:
"Is all this true, don Juan?"
"To say yes or no to your question is doing. But since you are learning not-doing I have to tell you that it really doesn't matter whether or not all this is true.
It is here that a warrior has a point of advantage over the average man.
An average man cares that things are either true or false, but a warrior doesn't.
An average man proceeds in a specific way with things that he knows are true, and in a different way with things that he knows are not true.
If things are said to be true, he acts and believes in what he does. But if things are said to be untrue, he doesn't care to act, or he doesn't believe in what he does.
A warrior, on the other hand, acts in both instances.
If things are said to be true, he would act in order to do doing.
If things are said to be untrue, he still would act in order to do not-doing. See what I mean?"
Looking for ease of mind is just a way of being lazy.
Nothing will give you 100% ease of mind. What would it take for that?
In the meantime you'll doubt, and like an average man you won't care to act.
Push yourself and be willing to claim real magic.
Look around. There is a working method in here.
The proof is in the pudding. Darkroom gazing chocolate pudding. ; )
I never said this would stop me. I ultimately will still keep going whether Juan was a real person or not.
Awesome!
No need to be comforted then.
Aren't we up to 8+ eye witnesses to don Juan, including Tony Lama, Carlos' adopted son, his wife, Taisha, Florinda, Carol, and several others I can't recall?
And we have the testimony of Ruby Modesto that the valley near Morongo Casino was filled with such men, before it was invaded by settlers.
How many verifications does there have to be?
I've seen him myself a good 10 times.
But in waking dreaming.
So I suppose nothing ever counts, until he hits you on the forehead with his shillelagh ?
Which reminds me. Why did Yoda have an Irish cane?
Was it a politically incorrect leprechaun joke? The fact that they're green???
See here the thing I'll still practice no matter if he is real or not. I actually was looking for this kind of comment when I posted this. It would be ideal to have somebody who had seen him while he was alive and present but I seriously doubt that would happen in this sub. So yes this does give me enough peace of mind. Thanks!
I believe there are at least 3 instances in which Carlos admitted, don Juan and one other (Genaro or Silvio?) had a hand in the books.
Let's take a really exotic possibility!
A "re-run" is where you replay past events.
So you can see it yourself!
I've been around Genaro and don Juan using that. I believe I'd intercepted an apprentice who lived up north, and traveled south on the train. Or was visiting up north, the way La Gorda is said to have done.
When it's happening you just live it, and don't even think to look up and see who's talking to you. And you certainly don't try to figure out who you are!
You don't have the same desire to investigate, as you do when it's over.
So re-runs are a fact of life. And you'll get a chance to answer this question yourself!
But what if don Juan used re-runs to produce an "ideal" sorcery lineage?
For his books.
One that did in fact exist, but 600 years ago.
So it was true, but don Juan was already dead a half century when Carlos wrote about him.