This is just my share about how and why I came back this way, after leaving it behind twenty years ago. I'm still going through the notes here, so forgive me if this post breaks a rule, hopefully it doesnt.
I found the CC books in 1983 and was immediately hooked to the point that nothing else mattered. I tried to speak to other people about it, but mostly no one was interested beyond the cursory intellectual idea of it. It wasn't until the Magical Passes came out and I had access to the internet, which happened about the same time, that I found access to people who had studied it.
In 1997 I got on an IRC channel called "nagual net" or something that closed soon after, however public discourse continued on Sustained Reaction, which was run by Corey Donovan at the time who was pretty cut up about CC, and trying to free people from what he saw as a cult. So, I spent the next couple of years on there arguing with everyone, firstly as a true-believer and then gradually as a convert to a non-believer. But I had experienced a lot of stuff on my own by that time, though CC stuff was mostly frustrating and a closed shop back then, and that was why it was inevitable that I'd eventually leave it behind. As Dan points out, without real magic, what is the point?
After CC died, I ended up moving away from the teachings when it became clear that most people involved were awful examples of human beings and the furthest thing from warriors or sorcerers. So, I was pretty soon easily convinced he was a fraud by the gang over at SA (back then. They since banned me in 2023 for "wrong think". For the record, I used the handle Scott Bardell).
With all the secrecy of Cleargreen and general behaviour of wannabes, it became clear that without CC the trail had gone cold. And Amy Wallace's book sealed the deal for me. Logic won, I guess. Or offered a refuge of sorts.
Coincidentally, I had an opportunity to go to LA around that same time and stay in West Hollywood. So, still curious, I paid a visit to their home in Westwood and nearly crashed into one of the witches, who I think was about to mace me. lol. But there was something invisible moving the bushes in his garden, and I was trying to see what it was, forgot I was probably not welcome, and then she came down the path outside. I kind of panicked and walked to my car. I wasnt sure what I was expecting anyway. But that is about as close as I got to meeting anyone from the lineage in person. I think that was in 1998, definitely after he died maybe 99 or Y2K, not sure.
When I got home to UK I went to a Magical Passes group meetup hoping to find like minds to help me decide whether to stick with the teachings, and I couldnt believe the state of the people there, everyone had massive agendas and were awful fake about everything claiming they had powers and it was kind of tragic tbh. It was really disheartening after years of hope and avid study to realise I had gone down a dead-end alley for so long, and once I found others they were mostly messed up people and it didnt take long to figure it out. So in a state of grief and trying to figure out how to cope with the vacuum it left in me, I resigned to the situation, and gave it all up. That was sometime after Y2K. Not sure of an exact date, but I first achieved true sustained inner silence in 2007 through other means.
So I've spent the last twenty or so years studying other things all of which I found very beneficial, so I am glad I did. Trying to follow CC stuff was always tiring because it always felt like something was missing (the Nagual's Blow maybe).
However, the last few years I reached a pinnacle of inner silence and inner understanding that surprised me but felt good to reach. I wont go into details of how or why (the rules suggest not to, though feel free to ask if it is of interest), but what I discovered was that despite being in a really good place inwardly, I'd run out of road with all the approaches I tried. I also realised that all along I was looking for something to replace what I had with CC stuff, but never found anywhere else. It took twenty years to be able to confirm that!
So, I've done all the various paths to knowledge I could find, and achieved total inner silence for very long periods. Then a recent vacation and wanting to find something "esoteric" to do, it made me think about the Magic Passes again, since now I was long enough away from CC world that I had a better perspective on the whole thing.
The first thing that I realised was that I could now filter out much better what had core value, and what didnt. So I've decided to practice the Magic Passes and see what I can do with them now I am better at maintaining inner silence, and less confused by the promises. I started that only yesterday, but its already firing stuff and opening up things I forgot I had been involved with. It's funny how it is there all along but we just stop paying attention to it.
I also now have a lot more experiences from outside of CC world that relate to the stuff they talk about in CC world, so many things are now seperately authenticated to me. That would include IOBs and flyers. Though I had trouble with IOBs in 1987 and 1997 which took a long time to fix the effect they had on me. But I did. And that was another reason why I thought... "I know, I'll check out that CC world again and see how the new generation are going with it, assuming it even exists still". The bonus was discovering Dan is sharing stuff as he was missing from SA for the most part back then to ask questions of and I wanted to get as many sides as I could before deciding whether to leave it behind.
I've now got a few years left (hopefully), so its going to be an interesting journey now I am better skilled in the underlying requirements, but also less obsessed to achieve results. I think that was one of the best things about letting go of the path, but also the hardest to let go of at the time. You invest so much in something, it is hard to let go. As a result, I never dreamed I would come back this way, and yet here I am.
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We humans place way too much emphasis on other people; our success and motivation depends on others. If we fail, other people let us down.
If we want something bad enough, we intend it and do the work. Darkroom Tensegrity is the perfect example - we are on our own to make it work.
we are herd creatures, we cannot survive without community in one way or another. it would be like trying to deny yourself oxygen. but to follow this path, for sure now there is only our own motivation to drive us. probably always was that way really.
So could you describe on how you achieved that inner silence for you? Is it kind of a new methode or did you include more "traditional" meditation techniques?
certainly can, as inner silence is my favourite thing once I achieved it.
I think this is such an important topic, and I hope the admins will allow me to explain my experience with how I achieved it and discuss it even though it does step outside the bounds of CC work in how I do it.
I'll preface it by saying I am NOT pushing any other ideology or religion or whatever, I am - and was - only interested in achieving sustained inner silence so I could practive CC stuff more immersedly, ie full suspension of the thought process, i.e. stopping the Mind. That was my goal and I only achieved it in 2007 in 10 days in a Vipassana retreat (SN Goenke method).
I had failed dismally in all attempts previous to that from 1983 up to that point, when I finally found the time to do 10 days in a retreat someome had recommended I try to achieve it. I should have done one sooner.
I then followed other methods and practices until I was able to do it outside of retreat, which was achieved not using Vipassana, because it doesnt work outside of retreat, the world is too distracting and noisy. But I figured out ways to tap into that same experience found in retreat by using sound to combat sound, and that is what I still use to achieve inner silence quickly, but I have sustained it for long enough now that I can tap into it pretty quickly anyway.
If I dont do meditation regularly (I found about 3 hours a day to be ideal but 1 is enough), then I have to take a few days hard focusing to get silent again.
I never really understood how CC claimed to do it so easily, I found it really fkin hard to achieve initially, and still do if I leave it for long periods before trying again, but I have fast methods to get back in to inner silence now. But that was 10 years practice to get good enough to be honest. Like any PhD or University training and tbh I am suspicious of anyone claiming they do it within weeks or even months, the modern world is too distracting. Apps and 15 min sessions are pointless in modernity you wont get quiet until you master deep stillneess and that really only happens in a setting where you have no distractions at first. How he claimed to do it in a few months is staggering, imo.
I was trying all CCs methods from 1983 and none of them worked for me, calm, sure, but totally internally silent absoutely not. Total inner silence is incredibly difficult initially to stop the chattering mind at all layers. I dont think any of his methods are enough, or they werent for me. Not to really stop the layers of it to reach total suspended thought. And incidentally, and possibly interestingly, Vipassana as an advanced student is done in a blacked-out room with no windows for best results, like a prison cell, they make pagodas at the sites for you to use once you are a returning student.
I could expand on this subject a lot as it was the real bugbear to my initial success with CC stuff, but I had very distracted attention, but once I achieved it fully in retreat ( had to go back about 3 times to really stop it properly and grasp what that experience was) after that I was much more capable.
Of course, I had achieved it with power plants and so on, even with trauma and sex, but not on my own volition previously, only with crutch methods like body movements or wot not. Ironically sex is the fastest way to stop the Mind, but good luck with that, its also the most distracting for other reasons so not the way to achieve it. It's also probably why CC was sexually involved with the witches, not just for fun, but for stopping the mind quickly. But that is my guess. I have done a lot of work in that area too but gave up with it because of its distracting nature. Sex is like drugs, I think it is part of "the place below" so now I tend more toward celibacy. There is always a predator-prey dynamic with sexual energy. But I digress.
Hope something in that helps. I write a lot. you may have noticed. lol.
Hi, please, what sounds do you use?
My own but I also use a drone sound. I find vomiting sounds are the best. Remember when you are sick and you vomit til you turn yourself inside out. what happens next? you feel bliss for a moment, only briefly before the sickness comes back. Junkies make themselves vomit on heroin for the same reason.
I also like deranged sounds, so deranged that is scares the crap out of my Mind and I wonder what is wrong with me that I am so god damn weird.
see where I am going with it?
its very simple. The great advantage of modernity is that it is so god damn noisy and distracting that the secret to meditating is to be noisy since it creates an environment to hide you in so you can do that. Great next to building sites or loud music-playing neighbours.
the trick is always to turn your bad situation to your advantage. I called my method The Gentle Resonance. I will sort out my website so I can share this and other methods I have used along the way to achieve various necessary things. But I guess sharing in here is not allowed since it detracts from the CC message and that is fine, but if you want more info feel free to DM me.
I like very much your suggests . Thank you.
My own interpretation is that this seems to be an individual path, rather than a collective one, a slight difference from the lineages, perhaps to suit our current times. All collective interaction seems to be an exercise in controlled folly
100% agree, the challenge of dealing with people, especially in CC world, is incredibly distracting and debilatating, at least I find it so. But as I said to the other commentor, its interesting that CC talks about group energy being more powerful than individual energy with Magic Passes. I have experienced that with one guy from the Magic Pass group, we hung out for a bit and everything lit up.
I hadnt thought about why before, but it would be because we were both tuned into that world and that increased our "weight" as it were. For instance, I was walking with him down Oxford Street in London and just outside a fast food shop, we both hit what felt like sludge and could barely push through the energy. I thought it was just me and looked at him and he was looking down at his legs and going "what the fuck, cna you feel that too?!" we both were surprised that we both experienced it at the same time. I think it was mass.
So for that reason alone I am interested in community. If only we could address the fakery, the bickering, the alpha competitiveness, the secrecy, the bla bla bal. All those human traits. But, again, I have been a group of non-CC people when we all "lit up" and they were more baffled than I was. I knew we had all just aligned to something akin to heightened awareness and they were all going "wow what is this?" and I was like "dont worry about it, you wont remember this moment tomorrow anyway." and I was right. I did, but only just and because I had been working on that kind of thing all the time anyway, just not getting very far. That was a weird moment too because even normies can switch into HA they just forget about it pretty quick. But point of that was, "mass". Just get people together and it happens. Also, that connection is through sexual channels, imo. That is another issue with it.
Yes for sure, there definitely is still power in collective energy. I've had similar experiences to you, in that I've practiced with one other person and reached dreaming states a lot faster than individual effort. It seems to be a starting point in pairs, hence why Castaneda paired off people as well. It's just that group effort seems to be more complicated. Especially in the western world, our ideology is so individualised that collective effort is perhaps more difficult for us
My tantra learnings were very interesting in this aspect and even taught it in workshops for a while until I realised no one can handle the distraction, we arent capable of it yet. But from the experience I ended up realising sexual energy used properly (and by that I mean not used at all but "lingered" in) creates very quickly (3 hours, maybe 4) and without any physical contact, the situation necessary for energy to explode that then connects everyone present in the group together. I wondered if it was borderline "seeing" that CC talked about all the time. I never bothered myself with trying to figure it out beyond documentating the method to achieve it on repeat, as I assumed if I reach the threshold "seeing" will just happen anyway. But I had to stop teaching the method as people just wanted to get to the sex and would try to hook up after a session or whatever, but the whole point was not to do that. So I parked all that as "too advanced for us". I included myself in that, I was always trying to convince myself that I wasnt focusing on the beautiful woman for any other reason that the Spirit pointed her out to me. We are great at conning ourselves.
Interesting also in your original post you said you came back to the teachings after trying and failing to find a replacement elsewhere. Definitely understand that. Once these lessons truly soak in, there is nothing else like it. And so many experiences that are clarified by the teachings, lack explanation elsewhere!
I think also we need to lose everything, all hope, all possibility, and experience total abject failure then give up. Maybe there is a reason for that. It's something I will observe as time passes and depending on where I end up. It is very strange to be coming back now when I was so adamant with myself "this is a cult, get away from it, dismiss it all, cut off or die" kind of approach was needed to let it all go. Which I did. so coming back and feeling okay.
It reminds me of dropping smoking, that was also a fight that I never won, then when I did, it was weirdly easy and I was fine with letting it go. I had to study that to understand what had happened too.
So, I will first just leave the notes that I took from CC's books.
"An immortal being has all the time in the world for doubts and bewilderment and fears. A warrior, on the other hand, cannot cling to the meanings made under the tonal's order, because he knows for a fact that the totality of himself has but a little time on this earth."
(no time to wast arguing with somebody, or even looking for community or like minded individuals. If anyone looks for something let that be real knowledge or a person who possess it. It's however rather difficult or almost impossible task).
"A warrior cannot be helpless," he said, "or bewildered or frightened, not under any circumstances. For a warrior there is time only for his impeccability; everything else drains his power, impeccability replenishes it."
. . .
"But didn't your benefactor tell you what was going on?" I asked, truly baffled by the unnecessary complication.
"My benefactor didn't believe in handing down knowledge," don Juan said. "He thought that knowledge imparted that way lacked effectiveness. It was never there when one needed it. On the other hand, if knowledge was only insinuated, the person who was interested would devise ways to claim that knowledge."
. . .
"Celestino's arrogance was his undoing and the beginning of my instruction and liberation. His self-importance, which was also mine, forced us both to believe that we were above practically everybody. The curer brought us down to what we really are - nothing."
"The first precept of the rule is that everything that surrounds us is an unfathomable mystery."
"The second precept of the rule is that we must try to unravel these mysteries, but without ever hoping to accomplish this."
"The third, that a warrior, aware of the unfathomable mystery that surrounds him and aware of his duty to unravel it, takes his rightful place among mysteries and regards himself as one. Consequently, for a warrior there is no end to the mystery of being, whether being means being a pebble, or an ant, or oneself. That is a warrior's humbleness. One is equal to everything."
Now, on a personal note.
I also upon reading CC books started telling people about it. I then quickly realized, and not judging people for this, that they simply cling to their "descriptions of the world".
. . .
After time I realized it would be rather difficult or impossible to walk that path because of "not having a benefactor." I think having a real benefactor would be helpful to have progress on that path.
I found some things though. One of them was to attend Vipassana courses. There I found people who truly have progressed in the idea of "breaking the description of the world" and finding out what "the world really is". In Vipassana though there is no emphasis on the words, the entire emphasis is on your own experience."
i think you only need recapitulación and doing magical passes to follow this patch , with a "real" benefactor you would need to do the same anyway. its what i feel at least
I think Vipassana discussion is a no go in this subreddit, but I did 15 of them between 2007 and 2019 and then didnt need them more. The bonus is that they actually have a way of recapitulating that usies attention to scan the energy body. I never did as much successful recapitulation as I did in Vipassana retreat. But to discuss that more is probably best not done on this sub as I know Dan doesnt like those pathways and fair enough, they are cul de sacs if power is your quarry. Which in here it is. So. feel free to DM if you wanted to know anything, but other than that, I agree Vipassana is a great tool to get you to innner silence with a bonus of providing raw energy recapitulation in the process.
> but also less obsessed to achieve results
That's mandatory once you get to silent knowledge, if you hope to get any sort of "control" going.
We cling to everything as part of the ugly "self" we developed in order to survive as infants.
But that knowledge doesn't help beginners, so the witches tended to just mention that there's a "place of no pity".
Which helps even less if you ask me. It's too each to interpret that as being ruthless with others, when it has nothing at all to do with other people.
It's US that's drowning in pity, most of the day.
Our awareness dominated by a predatory view of the world.
The cure for that is automatic as long as you keep going, but that's the problem.
Our motivations are all screwed up.
So that even if you get over your lazy aspects and work daily, .the fact that you'll be "all alone" out there in further realms, makes it less likely to be something you want to explore, instead, for example, of chasing mates, or watching streaming media.
It's perhaps that "riddle of the heart" don Juan mentioned.
But you can indeed get rid of the imaginary idea of a "self", which perhaps is more properly seen as "getting rid of you".
And literally becoming someone else who didn't grow up here and doesn't have the same petty obsessions.
If you sustain it ("no you"), then sleeping dreams float right in front of your eyes, as little videos in the air.
Which is nothing new. That's just SK.
But once you get rid of "you" by moving your assemblage point to the other side of the body and stabilizing it there, those videos show up just by "relaxing" something impossible to explain.
You get rid of the guard dog perhaps. Which is the nastier aspect of "you" originating from lifelong conflict with this reality.
What is it about the resistant self / ego that blocks SK or experiencing greater reality? Do you think it's none other than the Flier's mind?
No, we have an internal dialogue without that flier's mind. But how much, no one has explained to us.
I just know you can pretty much get the fliers to leave you alone by raising your energy above your knees, but still have an internal dialogue that prevents free flowing silent knowledge.
The fliers only get 1/4th of the blame for our situation! The rest is ALL OUR OWN DOING.
Because that "ego" or "self" drives the internal dialogue by providing "topics" based on what's going on, and any word coming from the internal dialogue, even a single one, makes no sense except with your assemblage point back in the blue zone on the J curve.
SK is far, far, far away (23 feet) in the purple zone. By contrast, Yogi "Enlightenment" is just 6 inches of movement to that "green station" on the J curve map. A distance even praying can get you.
You can escape from the blue to the green zone ("station" on that map), without a serious interruption of your internal dialogue. You can merely swap it for a more monotonous one like a mantra, contemplation of religious texts, or a koan (mind puzzle).
Thus Eastern meditation systems give you something to interrupt the internal dialogue, but never actually try to stop it. It's good enough if they can make you feel something simple like "bliss". That's enough to fool their followers for 10 or 20 years.
And they can sell "advanced meditation techniques" once people start to realize they aren't getting anywhere.
Cleargreen has done that with their "facilitator levels". They seem to keep adding new ones to get more money.
There's no Yogi or Buddhist "master" alive who has ever even gotten to the orange zone on that map, and only to the red zone when they sneak drugs into their practice.
We can easily tell from their writings, which are beginner's level at best, and delusional if you're honest about it.
Everything they do and claim is "enlightenment" is up in the beginner's green zone, and wouldn't even make an interesting post in this subreddit.
Here's the full map Carlos gave us, but it's all about that assemblage point moving, as the cartoon following this picture shows.
Sorcery is actually very simple! It's just hard to believe until you see it with your own eyes.
Here's how the assemblage point works. A thing you get to see with your own eyes. Not a theory at all.
Thanks, that's a really concise explanation for why the dialogue blocks it.
Would you say the effort needed to stop it is more a pressure or resistance to something, or can it be from a relaxed space?
I feel like if I relax too much, thoughts kind of just slip in. Must be the green zone you refer to. However if I am too tense or rigid it prevents a loosening of the default position.
Relaxed?
That's the big debate in here.
Many don't like my insistence that you need to FORCE your internal dialogue to stop, and not allow even a single word, until your nose bleeds.
But I literally did that, and the rewards are amazing.
Carlos' allies used to show up in very scary forms!
that's why I converted them to a more pleasing look, by not being afraid and insisting they don't do that anymore.
Let's see if I can get an AI to draw it for me...
Not too far off.
Is anything other than daily effort, recap, silence, and magical passes necessary to overcome the problem of avoiding aloneness? Or rather, will that eventually be sufficient to overcome it? I feel like im going to have to force that. I have a ways to go but everything (tensegrity, puffs, recap, silence to the level I am capable) is 'working' (thanks to the info in the sub) and now it seems the biggest barriers are doubt and solitude. If i didnt have to jump over the giant hurdles of my self sorcerery would be much more accessable.
I was trying to find the answer to this question last night.
And on an individual basis, you can figure it out. It's what you do by accident on some days practicing darkroom. Where you're actually interested and 'savoring' the magic.
But after a few years of getting used to spectacular sights, it doesn't work.
You have to make a deliberate effort.
There's "Kylie Fierce", but I prefer "Scientist Curiosity".
Or maybe "Nerd" curiosity.
Unfortunately that's not going to help most.
We need "dream snatchers" to rise in our community.
Even a few would excite the rest. Some would try to become one, some would hope for one to notice them.
We're REALLY handicapped by not having a lineage.
BUT...
If we succeed, that's amazing.
No one has ever learned sorcery on their own, except perhaps the first old seer who used the drugs and the allies to learn to "see".
That woman achieved something even beyond what we might achieve.
Not to belittle the accomplishment of learning sorcery all by yourself.
Carlos would get the credit for that, due to his (and the witches') voluminous books.
I'm definately a nerd and fairly hardheaded, so I'll keep it up and keep reporting. Also I'm in a pretty good situation to learn in that I've recreated the disappointments of the social order so I know nothing to wait for or hope for there.
I think the problem is the discontinuity between experiencing these things work on darkroom and recap and then getting sent back to prison on the blue line and having to walk around all day doubting it (still trying for silence but not always getting it). Which seems like the worst betrayal i could engage in. Maybe after a few years my link with intent will be clean enough that I can take that on directly.
Carlos and the witches deserve all the credit in the world. We have a chance because of them. Thanks for your help. And thanks to the inorganic beings that stop by and show me things (hello, if you read this!)
They DO read what's in the subreddit...
In fact, there's a phantom copy of the subreddit out there.
I used to get notifications from it at 1AM, wake up, take a look, and then realize I suddenly have a laptop on my stomach.
AFTER checking what the "notification" was for.
I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that the notification sound that woke me up, isn't used anymore.
So it wasn't a real laptop.
But it all sure looked real, and I did indeed wake up to look at it.
I have quite a lot to say on this as I left everyone in my world behind in 2007 and moved to the other side of the world. I'll save going into details here and do a seperate post on it. Some things about the experience of "aloneness" I wish I had known before I had to go through it. The funny thing is I did it after I had given up on CC so wasnt doing it to escape my past but it happened that I did. I mean, the world is connected by internet now and was then, but it still meant cutting off. Now, 20 years later, I go visit my family or those old friends and a part of me is aloof. They notice it, but I was weird before so they already know I was weird, now I am just weird with extra dose of detatchment.
but to tl;dr your question, there is no avoiding the aloneness. I never felt so god damn lonely as I did on bondi beach where I ended up living the first couple of years after leaving. Why? because I was surrounded by people happy enjoying their company and I wandered past that each weekend with nothing to do and no one to talk to and felt like a ghost. Luckily, I had methods to balance out the terrifying nature of the aloneness. It is terrifying. There is no cure for that terror, only distraction.
Actually only yesterday I was thinking about making a short story about a space man disconnected from his space ship floating slowly away with only an AI in his ear for company. That is the experience of this path. Not because you cut off from your family and move to the other side of the world never to be heard from again, but because the more knowledge you imbibe the more you become aware that you are alone floating in space. The Journey To Ixltan book nails it, just read the last chapter.
But the cure really is simple - strength and Time.
and I had plenty of the latter to consider how to find the former. It took 3 years to stabilise and if I knew then what I know now, maybe it wouldnt have beat me up as much as it did, ot maybe it would and maybe that is the point - the world beats you up because what better way is there to learn?
Strength? of course you dont have it, I didnt, so you fake it because the alternative is to die. Time is a simple one but the part you have no control over so it hurts the most - you wait it out. But its important because while you wait you focus on your goal, and that needs to be so important to you that it sustains you and helps you fake that strength you dont have.
then, aloneness no longer matters. But the only way to survive it and know you can handle it, is to experience it. The very thought of going through that gives me a terrifying shiver but then that is the point. There have to be some things we can't handle and can never handle. It wouldnt be a big ass scary Universe if it wasnt like that.
Which is also one reason why I really dont trust the IOBs one bit. not even slightly. And why I delayed dealing with them for as long as I could. They are up to something, always were, always will be. The Universe is not predatory, it is parasitcal. That is the biggest problem I see still. But I am a scaredy cat.
so much for the short reply, but I will still do that post at some point.
I expect it is part of the trap setup, that we have to work hard to escape the inescapable prison.
I also fell foul of the "be ruthless and you must cut everyone off" assumption. I mean, the books actually do suggest it clearly. But once I did that, ironically a few years after I had already given up on CC stuff, it wasnt how I expected it to be. I have made roads back, but it changes you irreperably. I'll post about my experience of it next maybe as its quite a confusing aspect of the teachings that people tend to hurt themselves with imo.
I think you are the first of the old guard that doesnt push it as the method. And yea, the whole "once you get to SK it doesnt matter" part is how I would expect it to be, not that I have. But the inclings of reach I have had suggest to me that the "concerns" we have drop away once a certain threshold can be achieved.
and yea, the effort required all has to come from self motivation but I had never considered that question before - why does the known draw on us so strongly while the unknown has zero gravitational pull.
I'll have to think on that now. Its got gold in there too I expect.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Personally, I never had the opportunity to spend time with anyone who followed this path. My only contact with it was intellectual, thanks to a few friends who lent me Castaneda's books over three decades ago. So I walked this path alone until very recently, when I discovered this Reddit. Only now do I realize that, had things been different, my personal situation might not have been any better. Castaneda really stirred up an enormous amount of controversy over the past few decades!
If it took Castaneda himself decades to learn and transform, even with the direct guidance of a Nagual, then it seems inevitable that people trying to learn this path on their own—or even just trying to understand it—would fall into power struggles or personal agendas. We are, after all, only human, and it takes an immense amount of time and energy to change our nature.
This Reddit places a strong emphasis on Darkroom practice—performing the Magical Passes in complete darkness. At the moment, I have nothing against that approach. However, I do think it is absolutely vital not to forget all the teachings that Castaneda, Florinda Donner, and Taisha Abelar left us: teachings passed down by the sorcerers of don Juan's group. I consider them essential.
For me, the Warrior's Path has been indispensable in helping me bear the weight of this life and accomplish my goals. Likewise, the Art of Stalking has been invaluable in learning how to move through a world filled with other people.
There are so many lessons that I would love to see gathered and condensed in one place. They may seem simple, but they are profoundly important: keeping death as our advisor, practicing not-doings, or acting impeccably. That last one may be the most important of all.
Another lesson is acting without expecting a reward, or without caring about the outcome of your actions. For me, that has probably been the hardest lesson to truly absorb. I always wanted to help others and save what I saw as a world in danger, so my intent became attached to achieving that goal. I simply couldn't allow myself to accept any outcome other than the one I desired.
Today I understand that acting impeccably is the only thing I can truly do. The results of my actions will take care of themselves, because they are no longer what matters to me.
Thank you again for sharing your personal experience. It helps me understand how this "Castanedian" culture developed, with its critics, its devoted followers, and everyone in between. It's easy to see how difficult it was for ordinary people to encounter this new branch of knowledge. Yet very few people appreciate how difficult it must have been for Castaneda and the witches to fulfill their role: trying to communicate a path to hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom harassed or pursued them, when what those people really needed was simply to practice, attain inner silence, conserve their energy, and then direct it through their intent.
Recently, Taisha Abelar's final book was published. It contains a great deal of valuable information and teachings passed on by don Juan and Nélida. I'm currently reading the section on "letting go," so I imagine it aligns with the path you're exploring. The book is called Stalking with the Double.
You can found it here:
https://archive.org/details/taisha-abelar-stalking-with-the-double
I believe we should move away from the idea of being sheep in need of a shepherd (or the naguals blow). A person can gradually and relentlessly shift the assemblage point through the practice of stalking and the art of dreaming. Freeing ourselves from who we used to be through recapitulation gives us more energy. Moving away from self-reflection allows us to become more fluid and to approach the Infinite Abstract. All we have to do is focus our intent on that, and, with time, every barrier eventually gives way.
I truly hope I become a dedicated practitioner of the Magical Passes and recapitulation, because I'm certain they will give me a tremendous boost as a human being. And I also hope to practice them in the Darkroom, as is so often recommended here on this Reddit. Simply i was waiting for the correct time as i fell it, or maybe i didnt want to accept my responsability and preffer to be an eternal aprendicce.
Happy second day of practice, my friend! May your path be long, and may it be filled with joy at every step.
Thank you for sharing your experience, too. I appreciate hearing from others on their journey. I think being open and sharing is the way forward, getting rid of this heirarchy of secrecy and competitiveness. I wanted to see that happen before but it was not possible, now I think it is. There is a kindness present where before people thought they had to prove they were ruthless. My other big lesson (I cut off from my entire world and moved to the opposite side of the planet in 2007 and left everyone behind) is that ruthlessness and cutting off is not the way, actually connecting with others is the way. I'll stand by that argument too. I've experienced cutting my entire world off to know.
One of the things I struggled with the CC stuff was the "cult" nature of it. I understand the need for secrecy but unfortunately it ticked all the boxes that suggest it was one, or maybe Cleargreen was a cult, but there was cultishness in it all in 1990s and thereafter.
Same thing happened to Osho's world, I don't think he was bad per se nor a cult originally, I think he got used by those around him, who weren't as adapt at meditating but were much better at manipulating and were hungry and vacuuous and desperate. Much like you describe in Taishas "new" old book.
But CC kept hold of the reigns of his cult while he lasted, but once he was gone then it is just echoes from his time, like ripples from the past reaching us; we feel the energy in it for a moment, then it is gone, we cannot grab it any more. it's just an echo. I think that is why the lineage ended but I have yet to confirm what is happening now, something is happening. It is why I am back.
CC also arrived in a time before we even understood all those "its a cult" problems. Now we are better aware of them thanks to extensive media shows on them and... the internet.
So, applying Presentism to the journey is also important. It is easy to deride the teachings from the perspective of how things are done in 2026, but we then ignore the fact this was happening in 1970s (CAVEAT: if it was happening! unless we know for certain there will always be an "if" and we should not ignore that, imo.) But that was a very different time. Everything since then up to CCs death was also a different and unique time. The closing of the lineage time. I can accept that. This is also a new time - revisiting the scraps to see what we can salvage to continue the journey (fight!) of human energetic beings maybe.
Then y2K birthed the internet and streaming media, and so our access to global information sped up, and so our understanding evolved rapidly, and that is what we see today. I remember first time I sent a phone text to the guy living upstairs and we both stood amazed at the "magic" of that text message going out to space and coming back down to his phone. Today I get upset if I cant uploaded a 1 hour video to Youtube in 30 seconds. We desensitize to the changes, then we read the books and experience words that havent changed since 1990s, and of course we question their authenticity. But its a similar thing - truth itself can fluctuate in this world of intent, since energy is not static it is just an agreement. But when truth fluctuates it freaks us out, because we NEED stability to function so we panic. But maybe that is how it is supposed to be, unclear.
the 2nd enemy of man - clarity. That is my enemy today. I am clear, it is why I have to force myself to push on to the next stage and do the work. It would be very easy for me to sit back and stop doing anything. I have clarity in my life why would I bother doing anything?
But the underlying knowledge will not change even if it comes from a different direction in the future than CC. The only thing that changes is the containers that deliver it.
That is why - for me - it no longer matters if CC was telling the truth. I am a veteran of that world coming back the other way, with death next to me telling me "I am going to tap you very soon, so make the most of this last walk", and so it is of little interest to me any longer "was he telling the truth, that crazy old coyote?". I dont care. I only care in how fast I can filter out the parts that enable me to raise my energetic mass now for my own reasons.
I spent years in this, maybe this is why I am returning because it is a language I know. It IS a language, its own language. CC language. We all speak it. A new comer doesnt, but has to learn it. Like it or not, this language exists and is real and has enabled us all the true-believers and non-believers to progress in our own way by challenging one another. That makes it a tool we can all use. That is how I see it, I dont care who believes or doesnt believe any longer. Enjoy your political positionining if you hate CC, or are using it to con people, or are a menace to society and building a cult, That is your problem. you are still a human on a path as far as I concerned and part of the bigger team.
Take your comment, you covered almost everything just in that comment. You informed me you speak the language well, and so I know we can talk about it fluently. You also signalled which side you feel you are on. Friend or foe. We speak CC, as it were. That just means we can use that to discuss topics that would be masked if we had to speak in Christianity, or Scientology, or even Science, or even Sustained Reaction non-believe language. Its all just language. surface level.
Here is an interesting thing that no one seems to have picked up on yet. Time & Aging. We now know for certain that if I spend some time on a planet that has heavy mass and then come back here, even scientists agree that you will all have aged considerably, but I will not have. That fact is now accepted by the average person thanks to the movie "Interstellar". And like how The Matrix delivered the concept of the IOBs and Flyers in a way. These things should be a good example of how CC stuff that once was argued, is now proven valid and delivered to the herd via movies as concepts. So if someone like HYL wants to live to 150 years old in the mistaken idea of thus proving his value to himself (or others) then he should dream his way to a heavy mass planet and wait a few hours then come back. Why not?
I am going all over the place here though, so need to reign it in. Thank you again for your comment and everything anyone shares is fascinating. I am very pleased to see less people fighting and more people curious and receptive to the possibilities. Whether we remain chained to the constraints of CC world to continue is another question, but the rules here are that we do, so I will. In here at least.
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Thanks for sharing your experience, Its always hood to hear from people that have been on the path for some time.
thanks, old dogs just want to be of use if we can be. the hard bit is finding anyone wanting to listen.
question for admins. This post got flagged with a spoiler. I am just trying to understand why so I can avoid the mistake in future.
I did read the rules and thought it was perfectly valid to post my experiences regards the CC path. Can you give me some idea of what I got wrong in that would be helpful so I can avoid it in future and stick to the required regimen.
here is what I took as the rules to follow and am a little confused which of these I broke.
from your "about" section:
And in the reasons for it getting tagged as a Spoiler you have:
pretty sure my post abided by both of those, so some clarity on my error of judgement would be really helpful. Thanks.
The “Spoiler” tag is used to denote posts whose intent is not to be pragmatically useful for someone who is an active practitioner. Many people don’t like to wade through a post to discover there was nothing, or almost nothing, personably actionable in it.
That tag gives them a heads up that they can skip it.
We have a heavy bias towards promoting posts that report direct experience with the practices. With perceptual details.
thanks for the clarification. I understand.
From my own experience, I can say that there's no internal dialogue left once the flyer's mind is defeated. And no drugs are needed, only intention and practice. It took me 7 years of practice, 5 hours every day. Two hours of recapitulation, and two exercises of Taisha Abelar's + Qigong every day. And, whenever possible, doing everything consciously — washing dishes, for example: if thoughts distract you, you can think only about what you're doing right now. And step by step comes the realization that you're really being controlled. And after that it's purely a matter of will — whether you fight it or go back into the crowd and live and die like everyone else. And the unknown itself isn't frightening at all; what's more frightening is getting stuck here if you don't keep going.
And I'll add that a teacher isn't even necessary. I believe Carlos Castaneda's books are already a manual for how to achieve everything. Just take it and do it. And one more thing that helped a lot was the practice of crossing the eyes toward the bridge of the nose until one object splits into two, and then gazing at what's in the middle. This is described in A Separate Reality."
i think doing everything consciously is really a good point. and work or fix your intent in achievent it
Exactly — that conscious awareness is the whole foundation.
I think this is one of the most powerful steps toward seeing how you're being controlled — recapitulation, the practice from Carlos Castaneda's work.
You start simply: watching every step you take. At first it's hard — the mind fights you, throws up noise, resists being observed. But then something shifts, and it turns into one of the most fascinating journeys you'll ever take — a journey back into yourself.
Here's an example from my own practice. I'm walking to the market, and I notice my mind already deciding everything for me: which street to turn onto, which vendor to approach, what to buy — even which feelings I'm "supposed" to feel if I walk up to the seller who's cheated me before. And this is where the real work begins. The moment you notice it, you can change your route — and that single act means you're no longer running on autopilot. You're choosing.
Then comes the deeper work: through recapitulation, you go back to that moment and work through the feeling itself — why does being deceived hook you so deeply?** You sit with it, you trace it, you clear it. Then next time, you walk up to that same vendor and check: is the old feeling still there, or is it gone? You do this with everything. This is Castaneda's "not-doing" in action — you're breaking the script, stepping outside the automatic patterns that usually "do" you.
Another example: I used to smoke, and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't quit. So I took a notebook and started writing down every cigarette — why I wanted it, what I thought it was giving me. One by one, almost every cigarette fell away on its own. Only three were left — the ones I thought I truly enjoyed. I wasn't practicing Castaneda's recapitulation yet at the time, but the principle was the same: I broke the habit down into its pieces. And once I had broken the script and taken apart every component of the habit, it simply stopped existing on its own.
Thanks for the link and the explanation. It really helps me understand. :)
I know I need to trace back several events that go all the way to my early childhood—most likely involving my first school and my parents—that made me react with anger whenever someone confidently presents something that isn't "the truth."
I'm someone who understands that there are thousands of different points of view, but I also believe there are facts or truths, even purely energetic ones.
I work on this every day, trying not to get angry and to remain kind and respectful. I even carry an object that reminds me to stay focused on my intent. But I think it will become much easier once I finally free myself from this particular configuration of my personality. Haha.
I want to name something directly, because I think it matters more than the methodology debate.
Encouraging people—especially newcomers, some of whom may be isolated, searching for meaning, or going through something difficult—to sit alone in the dark for extended periods, suppress inner dialogue, and interpret whatever hypnagogic or dissociative phenomena arise as contact with "inorganic beings" or a shift in reality, is not a neutral technical instruction. That combination (sensory deprivation, sustained isolation, suppression of ordinary reality-testing, framed as spiritual progress) is a known recipe for destabilizing people psychologically, not just producing "results."
Castaneda's own books describe this risk directly—the warning that an unprepared person meeting "the nagual's blow" gets destruction rather than freedom isn't a footnote, it's a central caution. A practice that markets itself as faster and more reliable than the classical foundation, while skipping the years of grounding work that foundation exists to provide, is structurally more likely to produce exactly that harm—not despite being popular, but because it's optimized for producing something dramatic and visible quickly.
One more thing: you've cited being a direct student as your credential, but that raises a fair question — if that apprenticeship gave you real access to what Castaneda describes, why hasn't that translated into demonstrating the same results you're asking others to prove? Lineage isn't a substitute for the evidence you're demanding from everyone else. If it is, that should be shown, not asserted.
I'm not saying this to accuse you of intending harm. I'm saying it because if this sub is genuinely about serious practice rather than recruitment, that risk deserves to be addressed head-on—what safeguards exist for someone who has a bad experience alone in a dark room, and how are those cases tracked, rather than only counting the successes.
I actually think this applies to Carlos and the witches themselves. I was listening to their interviews and they were all noticeably nervous with a jittery, electrical energy. They seemed to be downright terrified to be honest. I think their nervous systems never really adapted as they skimmed over the long arduous process of laying a foundation as you mention.
If you had known them in person, you wouldn't say that. They did have an electric energy (particularly Florinda), but it wasn't coming from being terrified. They had what Castaneda called "guts of steel", very far from fear. They had years of training and recapitulation, they didn't skim over anything. Not only they had a "proper tonal", but a well-developed energy body and tons of energy, unlike pretty much anyone we normally see in our daily life.
What year did you meet them?
The interview with Carlos was 1969- let's be honest he was probably fresh off a peyote trip back then 😆
I'm sure in person was different. Maybe the radio shows were running some weird energy against them. But, I do feel they were launched on an accelerated path and even 7-10 years is still not enough for the nervous system to fully mature (in my humble experience)
In the 90's. They didn't look jittery in person, more like bubbling with energy if you ask me.
Agreed that it wasn't fear — from my own experience, what you're describing as "electric energy" is probably exactly that. I've been practicing for seven years, and around year four similar physical processes started: cramping, sensations hard to put into words, and moments where the body would genuinely shake — not from fear, but more like an energy discharge looking for release. It got harder after that — any conscious contemplation would bring on something close to physical pain. Then there was a sudden shift: I stopped "looking with my eyes" and started perceiving through something like will instead. So maybe that electric quality you're describing isn't a sign of immaturity or skipped preparation — it's what a well-developed energy body actually looks like once real power has built up and starts moving.
In my experience, Human energy has always been more "magnetic". Round, circular, warm, etc. Electrical energy on the other hand is from inorganic beings.
That's due to the prevailing "right side" energy. But in sorcery we are trying to balance the right side and the left side. The left side has a different type of energy.
I don't fully agree with that distinction. I haven't entered into any kind of relationship with inorganic beings or drawn on their energy — I'm only sharing my own personal experience of what happened in the body through years of practice. What I described was a direct result of recapitulation and contemplation, not any interaction with entities. Maybe the electric quality doesn't always point to the same source — it could come from different processes, and in my case it was clearly tied to the assemblage point shifting, not to anything external.
Sorry — I accidentally posted my earlier comment in the wrong thread. Fixed that here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/castaneda/comments/1f257n7/comment/ozlsevm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
On the nervousness and jitteriness in Carlos and the witches — I want to add something from personal experience, since I've been doing these practices for years myself. What you're describing actually matches what I went through myself, which I wrote about here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/castaneda/comments/1f257n7/comment/ozailnx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
When personal power genuinely starts to build, the body can literally feel like a charged bomb ready to go off at any moment — that's not a metaphor, it's a real physical sensation of enormous tension looking for release. It's a hard, long stage, and if it looks like nervousness or fear from the outside — that's a natural process the body goes through when power genuinely starts to grow.
I understand and share your point of view. In fact, it has always been one of the main things that both grounded me and held me back, and one of the reasons I chose not to delve deeply into certain techniques.
As the old Nagual said (if I may call him that), most people are like cracked vases: if you put them under pressure, they break. That's why it's so difficult for anyone to follow the path of sorcery without suffering some kind of harm.
However, if we regard recapitulation and the magical passes as a process of healing, and the warrior's path as a system that allows us to move through the world around us while minimizing every possible risk, then we can create the essential foundation that will enable us to build the very groundwork upon which the house of sorcery—or, if you prefer, the exploration and development of consciousness—can be erected.
In a way, we are fortunate because we are in no hurry. On the other hand, this feeling of not being under any pressure can also lead us to waste time.by other hand this sense of no pres
Sorry, I couldn’t see your complete answer. It seems to have been lost; I only saw a short preview in my notifications.
Today is my second day of recapitulation, and I feel very happy about it. I am taking back my energy and returning the energy of my friends. Today I recapitulated someone who once shared the Buddha’s path with me in the past.
It seems that at that age you can reconcile with, or even cancel, some of your own decisions. Back then, I chose to follow the long path of the Buddha. What I may choose in the future is still open, but for now I prefer to cancel all the old agreements that make me feel pity and sadness about having to help others, or about having to find an escape for myself, my friends, and everyone else.
Of course, I will continue looking for it, but I don’t need to suffer or feel that my loyalty is broken if I cannot accomplish the task I chose for myself many years ago.
I will try the technique you mentioned before: “A thing that helped a lot was the practice of crossing the eyes toward the bridge of the nose until one object splits into two, and then gazing at what is in the middle.”
When I was a child, I used to do that, but my mother said that I would lose my vision or fixing like a ugly Dumb aha.
Really, we have many techniques in the books, and the way of the warrior, stalking, and dreaming. I love all of these teachings; they are pure gold. The last book by Taisha Abelar is very good too.
I discovered that I have always been stalking with the double, planning my achievements for the day, or whatever complex task I needed to do. About this.. maybe are someone teaching us in dreams too like happen in this book with thaisha ?
I'm glad I was able to help, even in some small way. I wanted to say something about your planning: whether it drains a lot of energy or not is something you can actually find out through recapitulation.
I went through even the seemingly most insignificant things with recapitulation — and it turned out those were exactly the ones that had drained the most energy from me. Here's an example from my own practice: for some reason, I'd spent my whole life fighting people who have power or money — a kind of inner revolutionary. It was only through recapitulation that I understood where this came from — all the way back to kindergarten.
There was a girl who never considered anyone else, who bullied other kids, and got away with everything because her parents were wealthy. I knew this because we lived in the same building. One day we got into a fight — I was defending another kid. In the end, I was the one who got punished, and her parents scolded me on top of it. She got away with nothing happening to her at all. And that shaped me for the rest of my life: ever since, I've fought against people like that.
Recapitulation lets you reclaim all the energy that was spent on this. And the most interesting part of all of it is the moment when you realize just how foolish you were, looking at your own behavior from the outside. You see how much of it was illusion. And you start to wonder — was any of it even real? And you realize it wasn't. And all that's left is one path — the path back to yourself.
Here's the link to my second comment — I think this is the one you meant:
https://www.reddit.com/r/castaneda/comments/1v19coo/comment/oz8z11i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
Wishing you luck on your path!