Any additional revisions/corrections are welcome. Source page for the lists below (was incomplete & inaccurate):
Castaneda makes it clear that these are not the persons’ birth names, but rather their sorcery names. In denoting their function within each generation of practitioners, terms are used which can only be understood by reading Castaneda’s writings.
The Sorcerer's of Antiquity:
*There was an indeterminant (but estimable) gap of some few thousand years between the decline of the Ancient Sorcerers that occupied what is now called Mexico, and the first of the eight naguals, the new seers, who preceded Sebastian
Generation of practitioners preceding Elias Ulloa:
Sebastian (met the Tenant in 1723), Santisteban, Lujan, Rosendo, and then Elias
Generation of practitioners preceding Julián Osorio:
*Elias Ulloa — leader or nagual man to a generation of practitioners, teacher to Julián Osorio, and to Juan Matus as well
*Amalia - sorceress, non-platonic companion to the nagual Elias
only these two sorcerers are brought up anywhere near consistently from this generation
Generation of practitioners preceding Juan Matus - Nagual Julian's group consisted of three rather boring (in comparison with Nagual Julian) cardinal men and eight very powerful woman. Since he had 15 members in his team, we may conclude that the remaining four were runners, probably including la Catalina:
*Julián Osorio — leader or nagual man to a generation of practitioners, teacher to Juan Matus
*Talia - female nagual, from Julian Osorio's generation of practitioners
*la Catalina - member of the nagual Julian's party who stayed behind, and became Don Juan's worthy opponent in the early books, and also Carlos's & even Taisha's (in her unpublished manuscript). She was over 100 years old
*Tulio - the four "Tulios," 4 male sorcerers (Tuliuno,
Tuliodo, Tulitre, Tuliquatro) who assumed a singular identity as a supreme stalking maneuver, in Julián Osorio’s generation of practitioners
these are the only sorcerers that were consistently mentioned from this generation
Generation of practitioners preceding Castaneda - As a nagual, don Juan was the leader of a group of seers known as the nagual's party, which was composed of eight female seers: Cecilia, Delia, Hermelinda, Carmela, Nelida, Florinda, Zuleica, and Zoila; three male seers: Vicente, Silvio Manuel, and Genaro; and four couriers or messengers: Emilito, John Tuma, Marta, and Teresa:
*Don Juan Matus — leader or nagual man to a generation of practitioners, teacher to Castaneda
*Vicente Medrano — “scholarly man” and herbalist in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Silvio Manuel — “master of intent” and purported to be permanently in a state of “heightened awareness” in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Genaro Flores — the “man of action” and “master of awareness” in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners, benefactor to Castaneda
*Juan Tuma — “courier/scout” in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Emilito - "courier/scout" in Don Juan's generation of practitioners
*Florinda Matus — “nagual woman” and “Northerly” Dreamer in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners. In the Eagle's Gift she is Castaneda's teacher in Stalking.
*Nelida — “Northerly” Stalker in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Zuleica (Grau) — “Westerly” Dreamer in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Zoila (Abelar) — “Westerly” Stalker in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Marta — “Southerly” courier/scout to the two "Westerly" women in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Cecilia (Grau) — “Southerly” Dreamer in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Delia (Abelar) — “Southerly” Stalker in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Teresa - "Southerly" courier/scout to the two "Southerly" women
*Hermelinda (Grau) - "Easterly" Dreamer in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
*Carmela (Abelar) - "Easterly" Stalker in Don Juan’s generation of practitioners
Generation of practitioners peer to Castaneda - (Original group for “four-pronged Nagual”) - In addition to leading the nagual's party, don Juan also taught and guided a group of apprentice seers known as the new nagual's party. It consisted of four young men: Pablito, Nestor, Eligio, and Benigno; along with five women: Soledad, la Gorda, Lidia, Josefina, and Rosa. Carlos was the nominal leader of the new nagual's party together with the nagual woman Carol Tiggs:
*Pablito - the "man of action" in Carlos' generation of practitioners
*Nestor — the “scholarly man” in Carlos’ generation of practitioners
*Eligio — a “courier/scout” who ultimately joined previous generation due to Carlos’ lack of ability to follow his explorations of awareness, apparently a manifestation of Carlos not being a four-pronged nagual
*Benigno — the “master of intent” in Carlos’ generation of practitioners
*Doña Soledad — “Northerly” Stalker, older than the rest of Carlos' generation of practitioners
*La Gorda — “Northerly” Dreamer who was originally thought to be the “Southerly” “dreamer”, this was apparently a manifestation of Carlos not being a four-pronged nagual
*Lidia — “Easterly” Dreamer in Carlos’ generation of practitioners
*Josephina -- "Westerly" Dreamer in Carlos' generation of practitioners
*Rosa — “Northerly” Dreamer in Carlos’ generation of practitioners
Generation of practitioners peer to Castaneda (Compact group for “three-pronged Nagual”)
*Florinda Donner-Grau — “Northerly” Dreamer in Castaneda’s generation of practitioners
*Taisha Abelar — “Westerly” Stalker in Castaneda’s generation of practitioners
*Carol Tiggs — “nagual woman” in Castaneda’s generation of practitioners
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The list above does not include their other sorcery names (dreaming positions/stalking identities) or birth names
And here's Dan's previous post requesting alternate names used in Taisha's unpublished manuscript, for comparison with the lists above:
27 Comments
Are Doña Soledad & la Catalina the same person?
Edit: Never mind. La Gorda says in The Second Ring of Power that Soledad was old "and fat" when don Juan met her. She couldn't have been the sorceress from the nagual Julian's group (who would have been old as well, hence the confusion). La Catalina was don Juan's worthy opponent in the earlier books.
La Catalina was Carlos’ worthy opponent
Doña Soledad was also recruited by don Juan to be a worthy opponent for Carlos after his group departed. That's detailed in The Second Ring of Power.
I am reading the Eagles Gift and I had some questions about what's happening there. So I started searching on the sub, I found this post so I will comment here.
Firstly for the members of Don Juan's group; the fact that it says that in the beginning the rule says that there must be gathered the 4 female stalkers for the male Nagual with the first being Florida ( North stalker). Then when Nagual Julian believed they were ready whent to gather the Nagual woman that was Olinda and proceeds on telling the story of how this happened.
*Ok I get it maybe there was some confusion about the members of Don Juans group that is confirmed on Florida's Donner book that describes the female members and there is nowhere Olinda there.
Secondly on the same book there is the story of how Don Juan found the Nagual woman ( Carol Tiggs?) for Carlo's group and made her come to his house and become the new member of Carlo's group. The thing here is that I have read from seminar notes what indeed Carol Tiggs described as their meeting and it's a hole different story.
Thirdly again on Eagle's Gift says that La Gorda was confused as a Southern dreamer from her fat but she did not got well with the southern women of Don Juans group and anyway when she lost the fat was revealed that she is a northern dreamer. Which is ok, I read it in comments here.
But then proceeds on saying that they found a genuine south stalker Donna Soledad?????
In the second ring of power she is described as a very powerful North stalker.
Just because I read a conversation about it somewhere here la Catalina is a Northern Womam that stayed from Nagual Julian's group. I can't remember on which book Don Juan says that but If you want I can search it.
I commented all these here just to see if there is a clarification of what's happening.
I understand that this book was written many years after Don Juan left so maybe Carlos remembered things that he couldn't back then so the confusion on his writings is expected.
There’s a discussion thread below on the Florinda/Olinda/Florinda/Nelida “controversy.”
The name Olinda is hardly ever used. Like the names in Donner-Grau’s book, which are only employed by her as I recall.
Sorcerers have a rather complicated (to us !) relationship with identity, and also one’s directly taught by more senior members (not our situation) in later stages uncover parallel memories that can differ substantially from recollections they were “certain” about earlier. It’s due to the increasing appearances of, and integration with, the double.
I understand, thank you.
I read the thread and it has the same questions I have for this name controversy.
Yet it's difficult for me to accept that Dona Soledad is a southern Stalker. Because from the Eagles Gift book she is considered a natural southern Stalker but in Second Ring of Power she speaks so much about the north wind.
Maybe it has to do with her adoption of different roles in the lineage. The older members from the previous generation made (what turned out to be) several errors with their seeing, which by it’s very nature is open to misinterpretation by our tonal, of the rest of the apprentices that trained alongside Carlos. So, manifestly, no one is infallible when it comes to sorcery. And there are no guarantees.
It just came to me that maybe the fact that she claims that she is a northern woman on the second ring of power it's a stalking maneuver same like that she was the mother of Pablito.
Yes the previous generation made errors with their seeing that I believe were " intent" driven mistakes otherwise we will not be here now. And I am thankful that this led for us to have this chance now with a free accessible magic for everyone that can practice it! 🙂
I made a map of don Juan's world a while back, but once I did, people kept sending me stuff.
Like a large and famous Mexican park where Carlos ran around with don Juan.
Looks real cool on google!
And a gazing spot, in ancient Olmec territory.
I wanted to compile all info from the books, and the new material, as appropriate for a map showing households and their locations.
And nearby "attractions", like the mask maker. Or even where Carlos went to eat with don Juan and Silvio Manuel, when they pushed him into HA for the first time.
None exists!
But after making such a map, my theory is that you could locate Silvio Manuel's house that had green gravel instead of grass.
Considering how active the Russian bloc is regarding Carlos, you'd think one of them would have put his efforts into making that sort of thing.
But it seems their efforts end up concentrating on making themselves into the next Nagual.
They don't care about the topic. They only want attention and money.
When they do put in work for something that seems like a good idea, it turns out they made it to convince non-believers it's all true, so they could add them to their fan club.
It's always about "me" in the Eastern bloc.
I'm not sure why Cleargreen puts so much stock in them.
Maybe they realized they could "franchise" Russians better than other countries?
Which as greedy as it sounds, would not be so bad.
If eventually, the franchise owners decided to actually learn to move their assemblage points.
(Franchise = facilitator).
But so far, they're afraid of learning that. Might get shunned over there.
"As we reviewed don Juan's world, we realized that it was a replica of his benefactor's world.
It could be seen as consisting either of groups or households. There was a group of four independent pairs of apparent sisters who worked and lived together; another group of three men who were don Juan's age and were very close to him; a team of two somewhat younger men, the couriers Emilito (Zuleica's dreaming double?) and Juan Tuma; and finally a team of two younger, southerly women who seemed to be related to each other, Marta and Teresa (???).
At other times it could be seen as consisting of four separate households, located quite far from one another in different areas of Mexico. One was made up of the two westerly women, Zuleica and Zoila, Silvio Manuel, and the courier Marta. The next was composed of the southerly women, Cecilia and Delia, don Juan's courier, Emilito, and the courier Teresa (!). Another household was formed by the easterly women, Carmela and Hermelinda (?), Vicente, and the courier Juan Tuma; and the last, of the northerly women, Nelida and Florinda, and don Genaro.
According to don Juan, his world did not have the harmony and balance of his benefactor's.
The only two women who thoroughly balanced one another, and who looked like identical twins were the northerly warriors, Nelida and Florinda.
Nelida once told me in casual conversation that she and Florinda were so alike that they even had the same blood type.
For me one of the most pleasant surprises of our interaction was the transformation of Zuleica and Zoila; who had been so abhorrent.
They turned out to be, as don Juan had said, the most sober and dutiful warriors imaginable.
I could not believe my eyes when I saw them again. Their mad spell had passed and they now looked like two well-dressed Mexican ladies, tall, dark, and muscular, with brilliant dark eyes like pieces of shiny black obsidian.
They laughed and joked with me about what had happened the night of our first meeting, as if someone else and not they had been involved in it."
:::::::::::::::::::::
New names: Marta the southerly courier/scout, Teresa the southerly courier/scout, Hermelinda & Carmela. Clara Grau from Taisha's and Florinda's books may be either Cecilia or Delia (likely Cecilia, because she was the dreamer, so Grau is used), and Clara was taller than Taisha who is herself rather tall. Below it states that Hermelinda & Carmela are around 5 foot 4 inches.
::::::::::::::::::
From the 16-books-in-one .TXT file:
"He told me that his name was Vicente Medrano, and that he had come to the city on business only for the day
He then pointed to the two women, and said that they were his sisters.
The women stood up and faced us. They were very slim and darker than their brother. They were also much younger. One of them could have been his daughter. I noticed that their skin was not like his. Theirs was dry. The two women were very good-looking. Like the man, they had fine features, and their eyes were clear and peaceful. They were about five feet four.
They were wearing beautifully tailored dresses, but with their shawls, low heeled shoes, and dark cotton stockings they looked like well-to-do farm women.
The older one appeared to be in her fifties, the younger in her forties. The man introduced them to me. The older woman was named Carmela and the younger one Hermelinda."
Maybe it's me ... but I can't find Olinda on the list or I do not understand the reason why it should not appear.
"Their eyes met, and suddenly don Juan saw her as a luminous being- and then he saw her doubleness. Olinda was a double woman. His benefactor had known it all along, and had taken the most difficult path in order to put don Juan in touch with her. Don Juan confessed to us that the moment was overwhelming to him."
Good catch! I'm assuming Olinda is one of the other names of Florinda Matus, the other nagual (double being) in don Juan's group.
Earlier in the only chapter in which the name Olinda appears "The Nagual Woman," Florinda is described as a preeminent northerly stalker, and that she was found first, before the events which saw Olinda (double being) joining the group.
But in the list above Florinda is described as the northerly dreamer, and Nelida as the northerly stalker. So we must assume that both Nelida and Olinda, being so close that they "had the same blood type," both used the name Florinda interchangeably.
Or more simply stated Olinda was also Florinda Matus (double name) or Florinda Grau, and Nelida was also Florinda Abelar.
Which is understandably confusing, but not as confusing as the four Tulios!
Also, Olinda's pass(es)are dreaming ones:
https://web.archive.org/web/20020815184038/http://www.tensegrity.yucom.be/Notes/Olinda.html
I don’t follow. Why can not Olinda be a separate person from Old Florinda? Is it because Florinda “stayed behind”, much like Carol Tiggs? I think Florinda can be seen more comparable to La Catalina in that respect. It does break the symmetry of the Plumed Serpent, but it seems a sorcerer party can leave without an intact serpent.
Because Don Juan had multiple sorcery names (aliases) he went by, depending on the circumstances and intent under which he was operating in a given moment.
https://www.reddit.com/r/castaneda/comments/mqanm3/all_in_a_name/guf3dtx/
Florinda would have been no different, them bring a matched pair or complementary.
But the symmetry and integrity of the four winds/households and stalker-dreamer pairs remains intact if Old Florinda is not also Olinda the Nagual woman.
Isn’t Olinda (dreamer) & Nelida (stalker) enough of a pairing?
I remember it was mentioned that Don Juan said his group either did not have quite as many members as Julian’s, or that he felt it wasn’t quite as balanced as Julian’s.
We don’t actually have names for most of those in Julian’s group.
Think I found the cause for the issue above.
”Don Juan turned to me and abruptly said that her name was Nelida, that she was of the north, and that she was a dreamer.
[…]
worked together for years to find the set of four female dreamers, who turned out to be Nelida, Zuleica, Cecilia, and Hermelinda.”
Good research 👍. I’ll edit the post and above comment to reflect this.
Thank you. And earlier in the same chapter:
”Florinda was the first female warrior. She was followed by Zoila, then Delia, and then Carmela. […] When they had all acquired a degree of proficiency in the art of stalking, their benefactor thought it was time for him to find the Nagual woman for them.”
So I still see no basis for believing that old Florinda was also Olinda, the Nagual woman.
The confusion stems from the fact that both Nelida and Olinda used the name Florinda, interchangeably in their stalking, because they were basically twins (in spirit).
And it was effective, because we still can't pin them down, like we can with a non-sorcerer! Which is what they wanted!
I see. Where does the information that Olinda used the name Florinda come from? Just curious.
Regardless, in the chapter in the Eagle’s Gift on the creation of Don Juan’s party, Nelida, Florinda and Olinda are clearly three different individuals. Regardless how they are named, the description in the post - that lumps Florinda and Olinda into one - does not add up to the description in the Scripture. Sidenote: That the Florinda that stayed behind when Don Juan’s party left, and continued to teach stalking to Carlos, Taisha and new Florinda, in fact was Olinda, the Nagual woman, is not mentioned in any account that I have ever read. And it was hardly a stalking persona of Nelida, since Castaneda distinguishes Nelida and Florinda (and Olinda) throughout.
You're not taking into account that Carlos was still working out his dual non-linear heightened awareness memories in that time period. He didn't clearly grasp the entirety of the 1960's-1970's apprenticeship years.
Mistakes, and confusion, are natural. So don't take everything that's written in the earlier books as gospel. Sorcerers don't set ANYTHING in stone.
What you should be focusing on is the fact that sorcerers break their backs to overcome personal identity. The limitations of the self.
They do not reinforce it.
Also, it's not surprising that the lineage that forged the whole Tulio maneuver, where 4 individuals could be considered as one...would also have twin women who were interchangeably-gifted in the dreaming and stalking disciplines.
So much so that neither could be locked-into being either a Stalker or a Dreamer. A rarity for female sorcerers.
Here's an interesting page from the Russian language Chaparral Encyclopedia, illustrating the relationship between the members of don Juan's group:
https://chaparral.space/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2
archived backup
And here are some of the birth names of the Chacmools and others that were in Sunday Classes (Russian language use translation):
https://chaparral.space/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%B0_1997_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0
archived backup
Another archived site's work on this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000524084856fw_/http://geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/5418/people.html
We BADLY need an AI, so no one has to remember this sort of detail.
Compiling it is good, but mostly just to feed to an AI, which might have picked it up from the books anyway.
ChatGPT has replaced 3 programmers for me, and is far more knowledgeable on programming that any human I've met.
It also knows all available "sacred texts" from any religion, so that when a bad player refers to one that really doesn't support their argument, you can just ask ChatGPT, and even ask if the document was made up, and isn't likely to be genuine.
Turns out there's no genuine sacred scrolls, at least in Buddhism.
All the same as any other religion or magical system.
Made up, and falsely dated or falsely attributed to someone you can't easily check out.
I'm waiting for the day Cleargreen starts finding "sacred texts" to promote their latest paid workshops.